
##220951 @!DANIEL-ZWERDLING- : Occasionally , we call on a food writer we know in Italy . She spends her days visiting local farmers , and checking up on how they 're making money from the fields . Nancy Harmon Jenkins writes for the " New York Times , " and she 's the author of " Flavors of Tuscany , " a cookbook . The last time we talked , just before the holidays , Nancy was standing at the window of her 17th-century stone farmhouse , that 's perched on a hill that overlooks a long Tuscan valley . And she was watching Italian families wander into her woods , to harvest mushrooms . Now the holidays are over , and we decided to call Nancy again . Nancy , welcome back . NANCY HARMON JENKINS , FOOD WRITER , AUTHOR " FLAVORS OF TUSCANY : TRADITIONAL RECIPES FROM THE TUSCAN COUNTRYSIDE " : Thank you . It 's good to be here @!ZWERDLING I take it there is still a lot going on food-wise in Italy @!JENKINS ( OFF-MIKE ) ZWERDLING : Now , last time we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ JENKINS : Well , right now it 's olive oil , especially right here in Tuscany , because we 're just -- we 're coming into the last couple of weeks of the olive harvest @!ZWERDLING Really ? That 's amazing ! I -- because it 's cold there , right ? It 's not like ... JENKINS : It is . It 's funny . But throughout the Mediterranean , wherever you go , not everybody waits until November to harvest their olives , and some people go on harvesting them into February and even March @!ZWERDLING So describe the process . What is it like to harvest olives and turn them into oil ? JENKINS : Well , it 's interesting . The people up here call it " melting the olive trees , " because you get up in the trees . I mean , you really do have to get right out there and pick by hand , because these are under ripened olives , these are not cold , black olives , they 're green , or they 're green turning to a kind of reddish @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ off the trees . Each one of them has to be picked by hand . And the people here talk about " melting the olives . " They wear a basket , strapped around their waists , and they reach their two hands up , on the olive branch , and pull them down , and pull the olives off into that basket . And then all the baskets get put together in big bins . And then the bins get taken off to the olive mill , and they get crushed . Now , before I tell you about the crushing , I have to tell you that this is one of the critical stages in making good olive oil . You have to crush those olives , ideally , within 48 hours of their being picked @!ZWERDLING Aha ! So that 's why some olive oil in the United States costs six dollars , and some costs 30 dollars @!JENKINS Right @!ZWERDLING It has to do with the crushing , really ? JENKINS : Well , the crushing , and also the hand picking , because the labor is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is it , the seventh industrial power in the world , or something like that ? And here we are , going through this harvesting period , in a manner that 's very similar to the way the Etruscans did it @!ZWERDLING So they 're at the mill , they are continuing , I guess , what the -- some of these old traditions ? How do they press it ? JENKINS : Yes , they do . A lot of them . I was at a mill yesterday that is absolutely traditional . I mean , it 's all run by electricity now , but the olives are all get dumped into this vast cask in which there 's big granite stones that turn round and round and round , and crush the olives to this very dark , thick , oily paste . And then that paste is poured onto those round mats , which are stacked one on top of the other , and then they 're put into an olive press . And they 're pressed very slowly , at low pressure , in order not to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ oil , very , very slowly , trickles out . And the vegetable water that 's in the olives rushes out . And that 's what goes into making extra virgin olive oil . That 's all there is @!ZWERDLING Have you ever -- now , are you standing there this week with the olives from your very own trees ? JENKINS : Well , I have one liter of olive from my very own trees . One liter of olive oil from my very own trees . My trees are very small , and they 're really not producing yet . It takes an awful lot of olives to make a liter of olive oil @!ZWERDLING And I guess , since you 're standing there at the mill seeing that glorious , golden , green goo dripping down , I guess it makes you feel like you want to , you know , jump up and down and celebrate or something @!JENKINS Well , it 's a very joyful kind of harvest , you know ? It 's funny . I mean , it 's a real sense that this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in fact they do celebrate in the mill . And the best thing of all is that -- what they call " bruschetta , " ( ph ) which is simply toasted bread with olive oil on it . But let me tell you how they toast it , because it 's really special . In the olive mill , there 's always , in a corner somewhere , there 's a fireplace with a fire going in it . And there 's always an old man who sits by the fire , and his only job is to toast slices of this saltless Tuscan country bread @!ZWERDLING Love it ! JENKINS : But when the bread is nice and crisp and brown and toasted over the embers , then he rubs it lightly with a cut clove of garlic . And then you dip it in the brand new oil , what they call " olio turbo , " because it 's still turbulent , with all the stuff that 's been going on . And that rich green oil soaks into the bread , and you sprinkle a little @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the best things in the world to eat , I think @!ZWERDLING Huh ! What more can we say ? Nancy Harmon Jenkins , thanks a lot for joining us , and ... JENKINS : Oh , you 're welcome @!ZWERDLING ... go enjoy that liter of olive oil @!JENKINS I certainly will . Thank you very much @!ZWERDLING Bye bye @!JENKINS Bye @!ZWERDLING Nancy Harmon Jenkins is the author of " Flavors of Tuscany . " She 's been speaking with us from her farmhouse in Tuscany , Italy . TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE , PLEASE CALL 888-NPR-NEWS # 
##220952 @!DANIEL-ZWERDLING- : Listen for a moment . Does this music strike some distant chord in your memory ? It 's the beginning of one of the best-known TV ads of all time . An Indian paddles his canoe down a lazy river . A closeup spots garbage , floating in the murky water . Now the camera pulls back , and you can see a factory behind the Indian , with a tall stack belching smoke . Now the Indian pulls his canoe up to the river bed . He gazes at a highway choked with cars . And as the camera zooms in on his face , we see a tear rolling down his cheek . UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER OF TELEVISION ADVERTISEMENT : Some people have a deep , abiding respect for the natural beauty that was once this country . But some people do n't . People start pollution . People can stop it @!ZWERDLING This ad debuted on Earth Day in 1971 . They called it the " Crying Indian Ad . " Some critics call it one of the most powerful television ads of all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country has a pollution problem . The ad worked as well as it did partly because it starred an actor named Iron Eyes Cody . Cody played Indian leaders in hundreds of TV Westerns and films . When he looked into the camera with that single tear , he shook you . Iron Eyes Cody died this past week , at the age of 94 . And thinking about him got us wondering , who thought up that anti- pollution spot in the first place ? It turns out that the ad was made by the Marsteller ad agency in New York City . A man named Lou Magmani supervised the project . He was creative director . And Magmani told us that when his colleagues first sat down and began tossing around ideas for some sort of anti-pollution ad , there was a lot of debate . LOU MAGMANI , FORMER CREATIVE DIRECTOR , MARSTELLER AD AGENCY : By and large , a lot of them were for hammering on industry . At that period of time -- we 're talking about the late ' 60s , early ' 70s @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ young people against the big corporate world that they felt were basically messing up their environment , and so there was a lot of very , very strong positions being taken . And I remember one commercial consisted of nothing more than a auto exhaust making the noise and the smoke that was coming out of it , while a voice over droned on all the evils that were being foisted on the world by the automobile @!ZWERDLING Huh ! MAGMANI : It was real tough . I think it 's tough because you have to keep in mind that Keep America Beautiful is basically sponsored and supported by industry , manufacturers of cans , bottles , packaging @!ZWERDLING Oh , really ? Oh , so , the industry was really the group behind this @!MAGMANI Well , the industry wanted a campaign that basically addressed the litter problem . That is , just the refuse you see on the side of a highway , the bottle there and the odd McDonald 's package and so on . And so , they did n't really want to get into the air @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Marsteller group was very adamant about enlarging the scope of the commercial to include what they felt were really significant contributors to environmental pollution . It was not an easy sell . I can tell you that the advisory council of Keep America Beautiful consisted of senior CEOs and manufacturing VPs . And to their credit , they finally agreed to enlarge it and take it past litter @!ZWERDLING And you came up with some sort of compromise , which was this ad about the Native American who sees litter and polluting smokestacks from industry , both . And then you went to the environmentalists and said , " OK , here 's our ad concept . " What did they say ? MAGMANI : I must say that the environmentalists were rather critical . They felt that we had , in a sense , whitewashed industry . Primarily , I think , because we had a theme that -- a " tag-line , " it 's called , I guess , in the industry , that ended the commercial , which said , " People start pollution . People @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rapping the individual in the street , and not the corporate world . And the point of view we took -- and I think one that 's still valid today -- is that corporations , they do n't really represent anything , they 're made up of people . There 's a vice president in charge of waste disposal . There 's a CEO who decides what the ethics of the corporation are going to be . There 's any number of functions within the company that make the decisions that either pollute or do n't pollute . And these are basically people . And we felt , and we proposed a brochure that would give reasons and methods that these people could use in order to help stop pollution . They as people had started it , and they as the same people could stop it . And ... ZWERDLING : Lou Magmani , I 'm starting to feel sorry for you ad people . You 're caught in the middle of this complex web of forces . I 'm serious @!MAGMANI Well , I mean , is n't that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ What happens is , you get the creative people or the battling young people , and you get the people with , I think , a dedication to try to answer this problem in a way that takes into consideration the practicalities of the situation @!ZWERDLING Well , before we go , I have just one more question @!MAGMANI Good ! ZWERDLING : Who chose Iron Eyes Cody to do this commercial ? Once you came up with the idea of ... MAGMANI : Well , again , that would be the creative team themselves , and we cast that -- because when Iron Eyes Cody came on board , he was in fact -- he was so obviously the man that represented what we were trying to do . And I think -- I 've always felt warm towards Iron Eyes , because he once told me , in a moment of confidence , that he really never had as full a life as he had until that commercial . Although he had had -- I ca n't remember the amount of films . I think the number was in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in that area . That recognition from this -- his personal standpoint was nonexistent . He could walk anywhere , and not a soul would recognize him , as you might expect , an actor with that kind of exposure , until he did this commercial . And it literally changed his life @!ZWERDLING Well , thanks very much for joining us @!MAGMANI Thank you for giving me the opportunity @!ZWERDLING Lou Magmani was one of the people responsible for making the famous " Crying Indian " anti-pollution ads starring Iron Eyes Cody . He 's an ad consultant . He 's been speaking to us from New York City . TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE , PLEASE CALL 888-NPR-NEWS # 
##220953 IRA @!FLATOW , host : Welcome back to TALK OF THE NATION/SCIENCE FRIDAY . I 'm Ira Flatow . And for the rest of this hour , we 'll be talking about the future of the space shuttle . Congress and the White House must decide by the end of next year whether to continue using the four space shuttles in the long term or to develop a new reusable launch vehicle that would replace the current aging shuttle fleet after the year 2012 . Now this week , the National Research Council released a report by its committee on space shuttle upgrades that assessed various design options for modifying the current fleet . We 're joined today by the head of the committee and we 'll be talking about some of the proposed upgrades and the committee 's recommendations to NASA . So if you 'd like to join in the conversation about the future of the space shuttle , give us a call . Our number is 1 ( 800 ) 989-8255 . That 's 1 ( 800 ) 989-TALK . And there are plenty of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ try to get through . I think you 'll get through this hour . And if you want more information about what we 're talking about , surf over to our Web site at www.sciencefriday.com . That 's www.sciencefridaycom where you 'll -- . com -- where you 'll find links to our topic , and you can also leave us e-mail messages , if you 'd like . Let me introduce my guest . Bryan O'Connor is the chair of the National Research Council 's committee on space shuttle upgrades . He 's a former NASA astronaut , the former director of the NASA space shuttle program and the owner and director of Aerospace Safety Consulting in la -- in Alexandria , Virginia , and he joins me today by phone from the Naval Air Warfare Center in Patuxent River , Maryland . Welcome to the program . Colonel BRYAN O'CONNOR ( National Research Council ) : Thank you very much , Ira . It 's nice to be here . @!FLATOW : Colonel O'Connor , the space shuttle is -- is -- is pretty old , is n't it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , they first sat down and started drawing plans for the space shuttle in 1972 . So it -- it wo n't be long before it 's 30 years since those first engineers began to talk about specific details on what the shuttle was going to be . @!FLATOW : And -- and it has minor -- had had minor up -- design upgrades in those years , has it not ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : Yes . Of course , the first flight of the space shuttle was Columbia in -- in 1981 . And in those years since 1981 , there have been quite a few upgrades to the shuttle to -- a lot of them oriented towards making it a safer vehicle , especially after the Challenger mishap . @!FLATOW : Mm-hmm . And you 've had modif -- modifications to even small things like the tiles and stuff like that . @!Col-O'CONNOR : Yes . I -- I do n't know if you remember , but before that first flight of Columbia in 1981 , there was a delay in the program , because when they first flew the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Florida where we were going to f -- launch it , a lot of the tiles flew off and came off the thing just from that airplane flight . So we realized then that we were n't quite ready to fly in space yet . We needed to figure out a better way to glue those things on there , and that was a significant effort . @!FLATOW : So what -- what is the motivation for NASA 's proposed upgrades and for the National Research Council committee ? Is it to decide whether there should be a shuttle or something else or is it to decide how to make this one last longer ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : Well , the -- the -- the s -- let me answer -- answer the second part of your question first . The -- the NRC committee was tasked to look at two things : one , the process that NASA is using in deciding what kind of upgrades are reasonable to do . And the second part of our task was to look at some of the actual upgrade ideas that they have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all over aerospace industry , some former government people , all fundamentally independent-thinking people who could look at some of these ideas for improvements to the space shuttle and give comments and recommendations on how they might do it better or other things they should be looking at . I think the first part had to do with -- with why are they -- why are we talking about upgrading the shuttle at all ? @!FLATOW : Right . Right . @!Col-O'CONNOR : This -- the shuttle , as it gets older , has something that creeps in , just as anything would that you 're flying or driving after 15 , 16 , 17 years , and that is something we call obsolescence . And so a lot of the upgrade ideas that they 're working on at the various centers that work on the space shuttle have to do with making sure that the space shuttle still has good , viable subsystems and parts as it goes on . You 'd be surprised how many cases of -- that they 've had since -- just in the last few @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ make certain pieces or parts of the shuttle , and so money has to be spent to go out and develop and certify new vendors for -- for these replacement parts . @!FLATOW : Well , I -- I mentioned earlier and you mentioned in your report that the White House and Congress have to decide just what they 're going to do after 2012. @!Col-O'CONNOR : Right . Now the shuttle has a pretty well-established mission and that is to support the space station and that takes us out to about 2012 time frame . That 's the life of the space station . Beyond that , though , there 's a big question about the shuttle continue to fly and support whatever it is we 're doing with human beings in Earth orbit , beyond the space station , or is it time to replace the shuttle with something newer that maybe is n't quite so expensive to operate ? And the decision on that is supposed to be in the year 2000 . Now some people are a little concerned that that decision may slip some , because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feels that they 're quite ready to -- to develop a new vehicle that will take the place of shuttle . And some of those development activities have been slipping and have had some technical issues that have caused them to delay a little bit , so that 2000 decision may slip to that . @!FLATOW : Mm-hmm . Well , what would they do if they did n't have the shuttle ? I mean , the shuttle is mostly a big cargo bus , is it not , to carry heavy material into space ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : Well , the shuttle has several capabilities . It 'd be tough to replace the shuttle 100 percent because it does so many different things . It 's a heavy-lift vehicle . It is our only manned vehicle that we have in the United States and there are only two in the world , the Soyuz being the -- the Russian manned vehicle . It also supports robotics activities where human beings with robotic help can maneuver items in space . They can service satellites . They can put a space station together @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's also the -- the place from which the astronauts can do space walks , not to mention all the other things the shuttle can do which -- which have to do with science . There have been quite a few missions where the shuttle was its own space station and spent two to three weeks in orbit with the space lab on board or the SPACEHAB on board doing science activities . So it -- it 'd be tough to find something that can do all of those missions . @!FLATOW : Mm-hmm . Well , let 's talk about the exact kinds of modifications that -- that we 're talking about here . Give us a -- a little laundry list of the kinds of things that could be done to the shuttle . @!Col-O'CONNOR : Well , there are certain things that are -- that are ongoing right now . These are things that were approved as many as 10 years ago as a response to the Challenger accident -- upgrades to the safety of the engines , the solid rocket boosters , the tank and the orbiter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ outfitted in all four vehicles , then there 's another category called the Phase II upgrades which have to -- which primarily are things that have to be done just to keep the fleet up and running and to take care of the obsolescence issues as well as any new safety problems that might come up . Sometimes we have something that fails during a flight , a piece of equipment or something that has a new failure mode that we had n't seen before . And we usually need to spend some engineering time and effort and resources to solve those safety problems . There 's another category that sometimes requires we spend some money just to keep the shuttle flying year after year , and that 's environmental concerns . As you know , the EPA and some of the states continually upgrade their requirements and their regulations . And as certain materials or fluids or contaminants are outlawed or banned or have regulations against them , sometimes those -- those regulation changes affect the space shuttle and we need to spend money to certify new materials or new @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Where we used to use Freon , for example , for some cleaning activities , now we have to use something else . That -- that costs money to do that . @!FLATOW : You also have some Phase IV as -- some very radical changes to the shuttle . @!Col-O'CONNOR : Right . The -- the last two phases are called Phase III and Phase IV upgrades . The Phase III and Phase IV upgrades tend to be those kinds of things that you 're going to do to the space shuttle if the decision is made to fly it beyond 2012 . If -- if we want to take the shuttle out to the 2030 time frame or -- or sort of an unlimited life like we 've seen with some -- some of our military programs , B-52 and the -- and the old gooney birds , for example , have very long lives . @!FLATOW : Even the 727 is still going . @!Col-O'CONNOR : Right . Right . There 's no reason why you can not fly aerospace vehicles for long periods of time , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ upgrade the avionics , the computers , because the old ones just do n't work anymore . You ca n't support them with spare parts and so on . Now the Phase III and Phase IV activities are things that we probably wo n't do unless a long-term decision is made . And they tend to be things that are quite a bit more expensive or , in some cases , actually change the outside design of the space shuttle . @!FLATOW : 1 ( 800 ) 989-8255 is our number . Let 's go to a few phone calls . Charles in Seattle . Hi , Charles . @!CHARLES-@1Caller@2 : Yes . Good en -- afternoon , gentlemen . Quick question . The Air Force has B-52s that are older than the pilots flying it . How many cycles do you expect these things to actually complete ? I mean , you know , life expectancy is kind of driven by how hard you drive it . If it stays in the hangar , it lasts longer than if you take it out on the ramp and fire it up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be aware of with the space shuttle is that the space shuttle system , when we talk about it , is more than just the -- the launch vehicle and the orbiter . The space shuttle system also includes the facilities that are on the ground , including things like the launch pads . @!CHARLES : Sure . @!Col-O'CONNOR : And as time goes on , the environment has a big effect on things like launch pads or just about anything ... @!CHARLES : Salt water , huh ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : ... that 's in Florida . Salt water environment -- we have to continually upgrade , make sure that the structures of those will last , and that 's not a cycle kind of a thing . That 's just a life in the environment . @!CHARLES : Right . @!Col-O'CONNOR : Now as far as the space shuttle orbiter goes , it was designed for 100 flights . And right now , the average is in the low 20s on all four of the vehicles , so they still have a long way to go for their structural life @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you -- we periodically look at each one of these space shuttles and we put them through a big overhaul program where they look at everything , they look at all the structure , they look for corrosion . And -- and we have had some changes in the past that were based on some of these findings on the inspections. @!CHARLES : Kind of like a C&amp;D check for commercial aircraft . @!Col-O'CONNOR : That 's right . @!CHARLES : Quick question . How much of their expected life utility will be left after we complete the space station , since we 're looking at an awfully lot of flights just to haul it up there ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : We 're probably talking about more than half of their life will still be remaining , when you talk about life as being 100 flights per shuttle . @!CHARLES : Sure . @!Col-O'CONNOR : There will be an awful lot of subsystems and components that will have -- have to be replaced , though . @!CHARLES : Oh , sure . @!Col-O'CONNOR : The obsolescence issues really do attack some of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- and we 'll have to spend the time and effort and resources to replace a lot of those things . @!FLATOW : Thanks for ... @!CHARLES : One last quick question ? @!FLATOW : Sure . @!CHARLES : What about what is commonly called in the military the COTS stuff , commercial off the shelf ? With the advances in technology , do we get , you know , smarter systems that are smaller and easier to run because they use less re -- chips resources ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : Yes . There 's a big effort to see what makes sense to put on the space shuttle from the COTS or commercial off the shelf world . One of the caveats that goes with that , though , is the safety and reliability and also the -- the unique environment . If you take an off-the-shelf computer and you put it in the shuttle and you do n't address any of the issues that have to do with zero gravity , cooling -- you know , air flow is real important in zero gravity because there 's no ... @!CHARLES @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ convective currents . @!CHARLES : Right . @!Col-O'CONNOR : And you can overheat computers in space that do n't -- that -- where you would n't have a problem with that on Earth . The other one , of course , is radiation . The radiation environment , the cosmic radiation environment , is -- is something that 's added to computers , and off-the-shelf technology may not sustand -- sustain that , and so there may have to be some modifications to off-the-shelf technology . @!CHARLES : Oh , sure . @!Col-O'CONNOR : But with those caveats , yeah , there 's a big effort to look at that . For one thing , it 's faster and cheaper and easier to maintain , most of the off-the-shelf equipment . @!FLATOW : All right , Charles , thanks for calling . @!CHARLES : Thank you . @!FLATOW : You make it sound like you work in the aerospace industry . @!CHARLES : Yeah , the -- certain large employer beginning with B. @!FLATOW : All right . Thanks for calling . OK . And I guess parts might go to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . They 're -- I 'm ... @!Col-O'CONNOR : I think they 're already involved . @!FLATOW : They 're already involved . I 'm looking at some of the things that you 're talking about , building -- changing the solid rocket boosters , all kinds of very big parts that might be changed . @!Col-O'CONNOR : Yes . In fact , one of the Phase IV items that I told you about that is -- it 's expensive and it does change the -- what we call the outer mold line of the shuttle -- in other words , the aerodynamic look of it -- and would , therefore , require some wind-tunnel testing and -- and recertification of the whole vehicle . But new booster rockets is one of the things that 's on the list . And one of the primary reasons for that is that not only would they give you a little more thrust and -- and the ability to carry more hardware into orbit , but they 're also -- once they 've been incorporated , should be a lot cheaper to -- to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ boosters we have today . The real issue , though , with those big liquid fly -- they call them liquid flyback boosters because they are reusable . They fly back and make landings on the runway and they use liquid engines instead of solid which has its own safety merits . But the big issue with that is that it 's a major program , and it would take several billions of dollars to develop and fly the first set of those things . And so it 's not something you 'd enter into if you knew the shuttle was only going to be around for the next 10 to 12 years . @!FLATOW : Right . Right . @!Col-O'CONNOR : You would n't be able to recover your investment . @!FLATOW : This is TALK OF THE NATION/SCIENCE FRIDAY from National Public Radio . And we 're talking about the future of the shuttle . Are you saying then that the booster would fly itself , I mean , or -- or be flown back with wings to land on a runway ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : Yes , the design @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what it is right now , a very early , conceptual design -- is that the two booster rockets would do their thing for a couple of minutes , just as the solids do today , but then instead of parachuting into the ocean and being recovered by the tugboats , they would fly back and ... @!FLATOW : Pa -- a powered flight or -- or ... @!Col-O'CONNOR : A powered flight with jet engines . @!FLATOW : Left over from their boost phase , so the same -- the same engines ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : No , these are separate engines . @!FLATOW : Separate engines ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : Separate jet engines like airplanes have would be on this thing , and it would have wings and it would drop landing gear . It would be unpiloted and would be flown back . And -- and both of these things would land on the runway and , of course , taxi off and clear of the runway , which is important so they do n't bang into each other . And , of course , if the shuttle ever had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the Kennedy Space Center , you 'd need them to be out of the way so -- so it could make its abort landing also . @!FLATOW : Interesting . We were talking about the fact that the Congress and the White House have to make this decision by -- before the year -- end of the year 2000 . I -- is the shuttle Y2K compliant ? Is it -- do we know that the shuttle is -- and all those systems on board are going to survive Y2K ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : You know , that 's not anything that our committee looked at . But I know NASA is looking very carefully not only on their -- with their government computers but all of the support . It 's an unbelievable amount of contract and -- and industry support that goes into operating and maintaining ... @!FLATOW : Yeah . @!Col-O'CONNOR : ... the -- the manned program . And they 're all working very hard to make sure that they are compliant . @!FLATOW : I hope they are . Let 's go to Tony in Phoenix @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think you might have answered my question in partial , but I was just curious that if we could go back to ' 72 with the technology that we have today , what kind of a shuttle would we be flying ? And when the new generation shuttle come on board , will it come on board in a timely fashion and a timely fashion before the -- the shuttles are taken out of service ? @!FLATOW : Yeah . What would be different -- what would be different about it today ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : The -- the ideas that industry are looking at today -- and there are probably three or four relatively viable candidates for the next reusable launch vehicle , primarily are single stage . The most -- the one that has been in the news the most is the X-33 and VentureStar concept , which is a single-stage to orbit reusable launch vehicle that has a payload bay that carries cargo , not quite as much as shuttle , but a significant amount of cargo . It could be built to carry people . It could also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It looks like what we call a lifting body , kind of a gumdrop with short stubby wings on it . There are other candidates . There 's a company called Space Access , Kelly Space and two or three other ideas that are out there . We and our committee did n't look at all of those . We were strictly looking at the process they 're using on shuttle . But we are aware that those are the concepts that are out there , getting a lot of attention and work in the industry as potential candidates to replace the shuttle mission . @!FLATOW : So what happens with your report now ? We 've got about 30 seconds left . What do you think is going to happen ? @!Col-O'CONNOR : Well , our report primarily goes to the shuttle team and lets them know that fundamentally we concurred as a committee with the process they 're using to come up with upgrade strategies . We thought it was a good strategy . We also had some specific recommendations on things they ought to be careful about and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not only in their process , but also with some of the individual ideas that they 're working on . And we 're also hoping that the policy people and the government , the administration and the Congress are aware from our report , if not others , that a decision in 2000 should not be delayed for too long . ' Cause every year that we delay that decision is another year that we 've not been able to make a strong choice on whether or not to replace shuttle . @!FLATOW : Thank you very much , Colonel , for coming on and joining us this hour . Colonel Brian O'Connor is chair of the National Research Council 's Committee on Space Shuttle Upgrades . He 's a former NASA astronaut , a former director of NASA 's space shuttle program , and the owner and director of a aerospace safety consulting in Alexandria , Virginia . Once again , thank you for joining me. @!Col-O'CONNOR : Thank you . @!FLATOW : You 're welcome . Tune in to TALK OF THE NATION at this time on Monday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ world of the black upper class . 
##220955 SCOTT @!SIMON , host : This is NPR 's WEEKEND EDITION . I 'm Scott Simon . And coming up , Hollywood reconciles with Elia Kazan . But first , this week , Arthur Kinoy is being honored in New York City with a tribute and a symposium . Mr. Kinoy , a native New Yorker , is one of the surviving heroes of the American civil rights movement , a lawyer who worked throughout the South during the 1950s and ' 60s arguing cases that overturned official segregation as a lawyer for the student non-violent coordinating committee . During his career , Mr. Kinoy represented Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and he argued against President Nixon 's reading of the Fourth Amendment in federal court . He has been controversial , famously irascible and now , at the age of 78 , celebrated for his audacity and devotion . Arthur Kinoy is a professor of law these days at Rutgers University and he joins us from his home in New Jersey . And , Mr. Kinoy , thanks very much for being with us . Professor ARTHUR KINOY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here . @!SIMON : Mr. Kinoy , how -- how did you fall into this -- the kind of practice of advocacy ? @!Prof-KINOY : Well , from the very beginning , the reason why , something hit which everybody knows in our history as World War II , and I was drafted into the Army . And there I was a youngster doing what ? Fighting against fascism , fighting against Hitler and Mussolini . And then I discovered something known as the GI Bill of Rights in which said that any person who had an honorable discharge from the Army could go to any school they wanted to go to and the government would pay the tuition and give you a monthly subsidy . And that 's when I decided that I was going to continue the struggle against fascism and against oppression of people by becoming a lawyer . @!SIMON : Mr. Kinoy , I -- you -- you represented Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in -- in I guess what turned out to be their final appeal , did n't you ? @!Prof-KINOY : That 's right . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . We were very young lawyers then . We had set up a firm known as Donna , Kinoy and Perwin(ph) and this was in the early 1950s and it was the height of the Cold War and the McCarthy period . And we get this telephone call from older lawyers who we know -- had known through the National Lawyers Guild who had taken on representation of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and had fought it through and had lost the case . And Julius and Ethel were sentenced to die and they called us and they said , You 've got to do something right away because the execution is set for tomorrow . ' So three of us youngsters , we pull out the books . And as we read it , what do we discover ? That when you were found guilty of espionage , you could be sentenced to death only if it was at the time of war . And we look at each other and we say , There 's no declaration of war going on here . This is the early ' 50s ; @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . ' And we rush up to the Court of Appeals in -- in Connecticut and the sitting chief judge says , You 're right . You 're right . If you can find one other judge who will join me , I can sign an order staying the execution . ' And so we -- great , and we go to Jerome Frank(ph) , who was known then as one of the most liberal of the judges of the country . So we 're sitting in his home and I argue this out for him for about three-quarters of an hour . And the execution had been set for four hours later . And he looks at me and Mike Perwin(ph) , who was there , and he says something we 've never forgotten . He said , If I was as young as you are , I would be making the same arguments you are . When you are as old as I am , you will learn that I can not go over the people on the top . ' And he turns his back and that was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ radio , and Julius and Ethel were taken to their execution and we ca n't -- we were devastated . Why was it that this judge , who was one of the most liberal of the judges -- why is it that he could n't have agreed with the conservative chief judge who had agreed with us ? And then we understood in those days , the newspapers were all saying Julius and Ethel Rosenberg , they were Jewish spies and here he was , Jerome Frank , the Jewish judge , and he was just frightened that if he , a Jewish judge , saved these two people who were charged with being Jewish spies that he would be labeled as criminal ... @!SIMON : Yeah . @!Prof-KINOY : ... as a terrorist , as a spy , and he could n't go along with it . We found documents which have shown the absolute innocence of the Rosenbergs and that this was a frame-up and they were put up in order to create this scare throughout the country . @!SIMON : I have to interject. @!Prof-KINOY : Sure . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a little bit , Mr. Kinoy , that , you know , there are -- are a great many Americans and -- and I will add for the weight of this argument , especially people who consider themselves to be in agreement with your politics on the left who have reluctantly , even painfully concluded over the years that -- that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg probably were guilty of spying . Does -- does n't mean they felt they ought to be executed for it . @!Prof-KINOY : No , definitely not . @!SIMON : But -- but -- but there are a number of people who share a lot of your political convictions who -- who , in fact , believe that they were guilty . @!Prof-KINOY : Yes . Well , that 's a long story in itself . Mike Perwin , before he passed away , was conducting a major case to get the secret files out of the FBI and the CIA . There was great questions about this . There was much evidence and much material showing that Ethel Rosenberg , the wife , was not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Julius had some relationship with the Russians that he had not passed over atomic secrets . And clearly they would -- neither of them were subject to death sentence , no matter what . @!SIMON : Yeah . Mr. Kinoy , I have to ask you , given the -- the news of the week about the Senate trial of -- of William Jefferson Clinton , tell us about the time you went into court against Richard Nixon . Is there any resonance that you -- that you see between that case and these times ? @!Prof-KINOY : There 's no relationship whatsoever . We had a very different situation with Nixon . @!SIMON : You disagreed over the Fourth Amendment , I gather . @!Prof-KINOY : Much more than that . In a nutshell ... @!SIMON : Yeah . @!Prof-KINOY : ... we were faced with a situation in which he and the whole group that he was working with in the White House had decided that they were going to engage in warrantless wiretappings of anyone who they felt was in any way opposition to their policies , both @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ brushing aside the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution . And they said it in these words , That the president of the United States has the inherent power to suspend the Constitution of the United States or any clause therein whenever he decides it is in the national interest to do so . ' And everyone was frightened at this , because this was not just a question of warrantless wiretapping , this was opening the road to fascism , to the dictatorship of the president and the total elimination of every aspect of American democratic government . And we had to fight that out . And they did this deliberately because they thought that they could then control the Supreme Court of the United States ; that all the justices on the court were conservatives , with one or two exceptions , and they had appointed them . But then when I had to argue this to the Supreme Court and made the point that what was involved here was the future of the -- this country , the future of the written Constitution , all of the conservative judges @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that was the beginning of Watergate . Because two days later , they had sent the gang of -- the Plumber gang into the Democratic Party headquarters to take out illegally the tapes that they had put in. @!SIMON : Mr. Kinoy , whe -- what 's your assessment of a lot of the federal judiciary , the Supreme Court and -- and federal judges and appellate judges now ? Are they encouraging aggressive activism ? @!Prof-KINOY : Well , some do still and some do n't . We 've always had that situation . Even in the old days -- I have to keep pointing out to the students I work with , we had very conservative judges sitting in the courts . But when you approach them with the basic concept that what is at stake is the future of the country itself , the future of the written Constitution , that then you win -- you can win the conservatives over also . And that 's our experience in the ' 60s and the ' 70s where there were -- well , some of our best decisions were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and I keep saying to people , you do n't give up the fight today . @!SIMON : Nice talking to you , Mr. Kinoy . Thank you very much . @!Prof-KINOY : Oh , thank you very much . Your questions were excellent . @!SIMON : Speaking with us from Montclair , New Jersey , attorney Arthur Kinoy. 
##220958 ALEX @!CHADWICK , host : Welcome back to NPR 's WEEKLY EDITION . I 'm Alex Chadwick . You no doubt know about Y2K , the coming computer crunch , but how about living in a place where some people are absolutely obsessed with the coming of 2000 , a place where people gather to wait for it , in hope and faith and a little fear ? That place is Jerusalem . Last week , Israel deported 14 people who are members of a Denver Christian group for allegedly plotting violent acts tied to the millennium , but there are many more millennialists arriving . As NPR 's Eric Weiner reports , Israeli officials are expecting more than four million visitors this year , which is nearly twice the usual number . @!ERIC-WEINER-report : There is an air of expectation in Jerusalem , a feeling that , as the millennium approaches , something is going to happen . That 's especially true among the 100 or so born-again Christians camped out on the Mount of Olives , the place where the Bible says Jesus ascended to heaven @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ DAVID : Now is the day of salvation . Now is the time . Lift up your heads , for your redemption draweth nigh . Amen . The Lord is coming soon . People have to realize ... @!WEINER : Every Wednesday evening , a handful of Americans gather in a small apartment at the base of the Mount of Olives to attend a sermon led by Brother David , a born-again Christian who , 18 years ago , bought a one-way ticket to Israel . David is an end-timer , one of a handful of people who believe the millennium means the end of the world as we know it . They 've sold their homes , quit their jobs and discarded their passports . Brother Raymond -- he no longer uses a last name -- moved to Jerusalem more than a year ago . Brother RAYMOND : I used to be a convict . I was raised 12 years in prison . OK , I was out for a year and a half , living off the government , smoking dope , doing whatever . One night in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me , shook me out of bed , woke me up . I was n't even looking for this , was n't brainwashed into it , was n't studied in it , nothing . Told me there 's no more time to mess around , no more time to play , I 'm on my way back , get ready . Within six weeks , I was over here . @!WEINER : Raymond and his fellow end-timers spend their days singing , praying and arranging accommodations for other believers , people who , like themselves , want to have a front-row seat to witness the second coming of Christ . They also engage in faith healing . When one member of the group recently came down with a sore throat , half a dozen people encircled her , arms linked , while Brother David placed his hands on her throat and began to chant . Brother DAVID : ( Chanting in foreign language ) @!WEINER : These people may have unconventional beliefs , but they insist they are not violent . They describe the Denver-based cult as a group of religious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what the two groups do have in common is a fierce belief that the events prophesied in the Book of Revelation are beginning to come true . The birth of the state of Israel , they say , is one sign . Grace Gonnegold(ph) , the woman with the sore throat , says she 's convinced the world as we know it will soon come to an end , but , she says , that 's not all bad news . @!Ms-GRACE-GONNEGOLD : God is going to pour a tremendous wrath on this Earth , but then he 's going to have the millennial reign . The Bible says we 're going to rule and reign with him , those who have followed him , and overcome by the blood of the Lamb . We 're going to have 1,000 years on this Earth of a beautiful time when the lion lays down with the lamb . That 's what we 're looking forward to . Are you ? @!Mr-GERSHOM-GORENBE : I 'm not a psychiatrist , but I have no reason to think that they 're crazy . @!WEINER : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for Millennial Studies . @!Mr-GORENBERG : I think that they are particularly intense believers in a set of belief which is shared by tens of millions of people around the world . They have a particularly intense conviction that this is happening . I think that they 're going to be very disappointed . I hope that they weather that disappointment well . But I do n't think that the belief itself means that they 're psychiatric cases . @!WEINER : But separating the spiritually devout from the mentally unstable is not so easy , especially with the millennium less than a year away , and especially in Jerusalem , a city that has always attracted those on the very edge of religious fervor , not to mention a few who may have gone over the edge . In fact , Israeli psychiatrists have identified a malady some call Jerusalem syndrome , ' a phenomenon where visitors to the city lose their grip on reality , often believing they 're biblical figures . According to some estimates , Jerusalem syndrome afflicts more than 50 tourists each year . Most of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- are Protestant . And for some reason , many choose to stay at the Petra , a low-budget hostel with surprisingly stunning views of the Mount of Olives and other holy sites . Unidentified Man : Can we help you ? Elijah ? No , he 's not here at the moment . He 's in Greece . Yeah , he 's in Athens . He should -- he will probably come back , you know , like , sometime in the future ... @!WEINER : Workers at the Petra regularly take messages for biblical figures : Jesus , John the Baptist , King David . They 've all stayed here . And as the millennium approaches , the hotel 's manager , Ted Bloomfield(ph) , says he 's expecting even more guests with biblical delusions . @!Mr-TED-BLOOMFIELD- : From what I read in historical reports what happened at the 1000-year millennium , a lot of nuts showed up , and I 'm sure a lot will -- you know , religion -- hey , I put it as religious nuts . I guess there 's nicer ways of saying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're Jesus or a disciple reborn or John the Baptist and Elijah the prophet . I had Elijah the prophet -- one of them , just leave a week ago . A very nice guy , but he does believe he 's Elijah the prophet . @!WEINER : That may be deluded , says Bloomfield , but most pose no danger to anyone except , perhaps , themselves . @!Mr-BLOOMFIELD : We had one guy now I just remember . He was right in this room over here . He decided some line in the Bible said that you should castrate yourself for God . So he tried to castrate himself . We rushed him to the hospital . Luckily , I think he got scared halfway through . He did n't really succeed . @!WEINER : Bloomfield says some people have already booked rooms to witness the return of the Messiah , people like Vlados von Eden(ph) , a 67-year-old Dutch man , who spends hours every day hunched over a stack of papers , working on what he says is a detailed plan for a new world . @!Mr-VLADOS-von-EDEN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ normal man and he 's a descendant of King David . But it is a Dutchman just like me . Well , that 's it . And the Messiah will be presented fairly soon , but I do n't know when . I can not tell you . @!WEINER : It might seem as if Jerusalem makes people insane . But most psychiatrists say it 's the other way around . Insane people tend to come to Jerusalem . One study found the 80 percent of those who contract Jerusalem syndrome already had psychiatric problems before they arrived here . But there are unexplained cases , people with no history of mental illness , who succumb to an intense , but temporary , bout of Jerusalem syndrome . David Parsons(ph) is spokesman for the International Christian Embassy , an evangelical group that helps Christian visitors in Israel . @!Mr-DAVID-PARSONS-@ : What happens here a lot of times is that pilgrims will come , they 'll open the Bible that they 've read for years and years and be standing in a place where a biblical event happened , and it just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that disorients them , and you find you have to separate them from their tour group , get them back on a plane with an escort and get them back in their own kitchen , with their own coffee cup . And within a day or two , they 're fine and there 's no treatment needed . It was just a little ripple in their life . @!WEINER : Israeli mental health workers are bracing for a possible epidemic of Jerusalem syndrome . One Israeli psychiatrist predicts that during the run-up to the millennium , as many as 40,000 visitors will need some sort of psychiatric care . Police have set up a special task force , the Millennial Squad(ph) , to identify those who may pose a danger . And they 'll soon begin screening incoming passengers , asking a serious of questions designed to weed out potentially violent groups or individuals . Visitors pass through metal detectors at Jerusalem 's Temple Mount . Israeli police are installing extra surveillance cameras here . This religious compound is perhaps the most sensitive site under Israeli control . In recent years @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Al Aqsa Mosque to make way for the Third Temple , which some believe is a precondition for the coming of the Messiah . Shimoil Zirrell(ph) deputy director of Israel 's Tourism Ministry , says Israel is prepared for any eventuality . @!Mr-SHIMOIL-ZIRRELL : We have our own ways to control law and order in the country , and we believe in the year 2000 this matter is taken in consideration . And if something unusual will take place , I will trust the right authorities that they will be able to handle it . @!WEINER : Messianic groups may represent a potential security risk , but to some they represent a business opportunity . In religion , as in real estate , location is everything . The Mount of Olives Hotel has the good fortune of being located only a few yards from the Church of the Ascension , a small stone building that marks the spot where the Bible says Jesus ascended to heaven , and where some believe he will soon return to Earth . Ibrahim Dajud(ph) manages the hotel . Raised in Detroit , he obviously @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ago , Dajud collected a list of 1,000 churches in the US , and faxed them each this one-line message ... @!Mr-IBRAHIM-DAJUD-@ : How would you like to be saying at the Mount of Olives Hotel the day that Jesus returns ? @!WEINER : The response , says Dajud , was overwhelming . @!Mr-DAJUD : More and more people are actually making reservations and booking and -- especially the really devout Christians who would like to be here and who would like the opportunity to sort of pray and possibly be here if Christ does happen to return , you know . @!WEINER : Dajud is a Muslim by birth , but describes himself as a pragmatic materialist . His family 's hotel is located on one of the holiest sites in the world , ground zero for the millennium . But when the year 2000 dawns , Dajud says he 'd rather be somewhere , anywhere else . @!Mr-DAJUD : I would rather go out into the middle of a desert with some really good friends of mine , and just camp out for a month or two , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : NPR 's Eric Weiner , reporting from Jerusalem . Coming up next , 100 years of the game of round ball . Drive the lane with NPR 's WEEKLY EDITION . Stay tuned . 
##220959 ALEX @!CHADWICK , host : And now let me turn to one of the true pleasures of hosting WEEKLY EDITION , which is that the producers always ask , Say , is there something you 'd like to hear again ? ' And when they asked me , I immediately mentioned what is probably my favorite piece from all last year . It 's just an interview , with a little dress-up to it ; nothing fancy , just an interview . This is from an evening last summer on " All Things Considered . " Here 's my friend and colleague , Noah Adams . @!NOAH-ADAMS-reporti : What follows is a conversation about a poet . His name is James Dickey . He won a National Book Award for " Buckdancer 's Choice , " and he became poetry consultant at the Library of Congress in 1966 . Here he is at a reading at the library the next year . @(Excerpt-from-audio) @!Mr-JAMES-DICKEY-@1 : I remember being down in the south of Georgia on the coastal islands , and seeing convicts working , driving down bridge pilings @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the sun on a hammer of a convict as he was driving down on a piling , and behind it there must have been a seagull or something , because I remember that right where the sun flashed on the hammer , there was a bird , and it seemed to me perfectly natural that the bird would be born sort of spontaneously out of this -- out of this flash of the sun on this metal . And the poem , I guess , takes off from that idea , that what you thought was natural and proper in the days when you were a child , you now sadly know is not so . A poem called " Darien Bridge . " The sea here used to look as if many convicts had built it standing deep in their ankle chains , ankle-deep in the water , to smite the land and break it down to salt . I was in this bog as a child , where they were all working all day to drive the pilings down . I thought I saw the still sun strike @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it a sea bird be born to take off over the marshes . As the gray climbs the side of my head and cuts my brain off from the world , I walk and wish mainly for birds , for the one bird no one has looked for to spring again from the -- from a flash of metal , perhaps from the scratched wedding band on my ring finger . Recalling the chains of their feet I stand and look out over grasses at the bridge they built , long abandoned , breaking down into water at last , and long , like them , for freedom or death , but to believe again that they worked on the ocean to give it the unchanging hopeless look out of which all miracles leap . ' @(End-of-excerpt) @!ADAMS : James Dickey , recorded in 1967 . Ten years later , not long before his death , he spoke to a class at the University of South Carolina about the craft he had practiced for decades . He said , Ours is a poet 's universe . Poets are not trying to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a few things he maybe did n't think of . ' Dickey 's poetry brought him success , and took him from a rusted MGB roadster to a red 1966 Corvette . But James Dickey became even more famous outside the world of poetry , with the publication of his novel " Deliverance , " about four men and a desperate trip down a whitewater river . In December of 1971 , a movie based on the story was filmed . " Summer of Deliverance " is the title of a new book by James Dickey 's son , Christopher Dickey . Christopher Dickey has made his career as a journalist , covering Central America and the Middle East . He 's now Newsweek 's bureau chief in Paris . He 'd planned to write this book with his father . It would have been mostly about the summer of 1971 . Now it 's the son 's view of his father 's life , as a poet , as a deceitful husband , as an alcoholic . James Dickey was notorious for his poetry readings -- barnstorming for poetry , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to another , often drunk , according to his son . @!Mr-CHRISTOPHER-DIC : He wanted to convey a sense of ecstasy . He wanted to give the idea that there were no rules , that you could do anything you want , that everything was possible , but by the time he got into his 40s , he became more and more of a spectacle as a drunk , and often less and less effective as a reader or as a presenter of his own stuff , although even today , as people read the book or read the excerpt in The New Yorker , people write me letters about being at little colleges out in the middle of the country , and having James Dickey come , and knowing that he 'd be drunk , and him getting very drunk , and then standing up and giving a great reading , so it was a kind of thing he got into . @!ADAMS : And then he would be , in a way -- this was sort of like a role he had -- he would be expected to wind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wife whose husband was out of town , that sort of thing ? @!Mr-C-DICKEY : Or whose husband was n't out of town . I mean , he would make a pass at anybody . It was what everybody expected , and of course , everybody in my family -- we all got used to hearing Jim Dickey anecdotes most of our lives about those kinds of things . @!ADAMS : You describe very graphically a scene at Rice University , an auditorium there , and your father is reading a poem called " Adultery , " and your mother is in the audience . @!Mr-C-DICKEY : Yeah , sitting beside me , and my father 's up there reading this poem that I had never heard about , and that I do n't know if my mother had ever heard about . It was basically about sleeping with another woman in a motel in California . And it was just an extremely painful , extremely humiliating moment . @!ADAMS : And when you analyze the poetry of those early years , before " Deliverance , " when you look back @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stand up ? How good was he ? @!Mr-C-DICKEY : Well , I think the poems that are in the volume called " Poems : 1957-1967 , " a lot of them are great , great poems . There 's a real original voice there , the imagery is stunning , and yet the subject matter is almost all very , very accessible : men in the suburbs and the kinds of experiences they have when they try and either look back on transcendent moments in their lives , or go and try and search those moments out , and maybe by going into the woods or looking back at their life during World War II . @!ADAMS : How did you feel when you realized that he had made up much of his -- he had five Bronze Stars in the war , but he 'd made up certain aspects of the stories he would tell about being a war hero in the Pacific . @!Mr-C-DICKEY : Well , I guess -- I was a grownup , I was a grown man , before I realized that -- in fact @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ late 20s , early 30s . There was a lawsuit pending against my father and he had to testify on the stand , and he was asked if he had been a pilot during World War II , and he said no , he had not been one ; he was an intercept officer . He was the second guy in the plane , these night fighters . He testified to the truth on the stand , and he always knew what the truth was . He was enjoying lying to everybody about this . That 's just the way he wanted to be , and the truth did n't really make much difference to him under normal circumstances . @!ADAMS : Coming up to the summer of 1970 , and the publication of " Deliverance , " it 's a critical moment , and you write that the forces of self-indulgence and self-destruction , having been held in check somewhat , are now cut loose . ' He has an almost instant best-seller that summer , and the next year they start to make the movie of " Deliverance , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , for your father from this point ? @!Mr-C-DICKEY : Well , I think it is in the sense that nobody could talk to him after that . You could n't touch him . He knew he had done everything right as far as he could see . After all , he was vindicated by the fame , the adulation , the attention that he was getting , the money he was getting . It was a period where everything that he ever wanted to do , whether drinking from dawn to dusk or chasing every woman that he saw , asking any woman that he met to marry him , all those kinds of things , he did , and not only did he get away with it , but he suddenly had the impression that everybody loved that about him . That was just Jim Dickey . That 's what made Jim Dickey great . @!ADAMS : Did John Boorman , the director , in fact , throw your father off the movie set that summer there in Georgia ? @!Mr-C-DICKEY : He told him to leave , absolutely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because my father had the idea that no matter what anybody said , " Deliverance " was his book and " Deliverance " was going to be his movie . So when he was on the set , he was going to impose himself on any aspect of that movie that he could . And , of course , that was not going to be acceptable to John Boorman , so Boorman told him to leave . @!ADAMS : But in the end , really , you describe a showing , a screening , and Jim Dickey is professing to be very pleased , but you feel that he 's not , that this is not -- there 's no way this could ever be the motion picture that he had in his mind . @!Mr-C-DICKEY : No . I knew that it was not . I mean , it was a good movie . It 's John Boorman 's movie , and it 's a real good movie , but it 's not Jim Dickey 's movie , and you could see that all the way for the rest of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the original screenplay so that people could see what his movie would have been like , and he would constantly try and do things that would show that there was a movie that he had in his head , but at the same time , he loved the adulation that came from " Deliverance , " and he would -- all of a sudden , out of the blue , you 'd be having a conversation with him , and he would decide to go into a riff where he re-enacts the scene where Lewis , the character played by Burt Reynolds , convinces everybody that they 've got to bury the man they killed , and hide the whole incident from the law . All of a sudden , you know , The law ? What law ? You see any law around here ? ' He would -- this would come out of the blue , he 'd start playing scenes from " Deliverance " again . So it got to be a very complicated picture inside his own head , but the bottom line is , it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he knew that all along . @!ADAMS : Mr. Dickey , have you ever been -- I know you 've been -- because you write about it -- intimidated somewhat in your work as a journalist and as a novelist -- have you ever thought that you should have just been a carpenter or , you know , been the captain of a sailboat or something like that , entirely different ? @!Mr-C-DICKEY : Well , no , and I thought that especially in journalism , once I got on the track that took me into the world of foreign reporting , it was so different than what my father did . First of all , the critical difference is that the truth was important , really important , and having grown up in an environment where you were always on really shaky ground about the truth , I found what interested me in the beginning was just finding out what the truth was about any given thing , and telling it . I think that he was baffled by what I did . I think he did not understand what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go to the places that I went , cover the wars that I covered , take the risks that I took in order to get little details that could as easily , maybe more creatively , be made up . I think he did n't understand that at all , at least not for most of his life . But in the last few years , when he had -- the last couple of years , when he 'd quit drinking , he was really trying to understand . There was a moment after he died when I went back to the house , and was closing it up , and I was sleeping in the bed where he had slept , and he had all the books piled around , and there was a National Geographic with the cover story about the Palestinians that was right where he could put his hand on it , and I know he was reading it just to try and get one more little insight into the kinds of stories that I covered . @!ADAMS : Christopher Dickey , thank you for talking with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Christopher Dickey , speaking with NPR 's Noah Adams . We 'll take a break , and then a visit to the place where computer lockups are the least of the Y2K worries . Jerusalem races for the new millennium , next on NPR 's WEEKLY EDITION . Stay tuned . 
##220962 SCOTT @!SIMON , host : Al Franken has written his pre-memoir . The comedian and author , who is also starring in the satirical sitcom " Lateline " on NBC , has pieced together all the elements of recollection -- newspaper clips , memoranda , diaries -- to tell the story of how the American people elected Al Franken president in the year 2000 and then how he was forced from office just 144 days later . @!Mr-Franken-who-d# Mr. AL FRANKEN ( Comedian , Author ) : Well , thank you for having me. @!SIMON : Now we should explain , the -- the -- the execution of the book follows -- you -- you take -- I -- there 's a section that 's kind of a re-enactment of a Bob Woodward-style narration. @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yes , the book is sort of divided into three sections : the first section being my authorized campaign biography called -- called " Daring to Lead " ; the second third being my campaign for president , which is told through my diaries , which my campaign counsel tells me not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the campaign itself . And then my presidency and -- most of which is told through Bob Woodward 's account of my first 100 days in office called " The Void . " And it 's a parody of a Woodward -- but it tells a story , as only Woodward can tell it , which is it relies a lot on Dick Morris . Even though 250 people were interviewed for the book , some as many as 250 times , he seems to take Dick Morris ' self-serving view of -- of the story . So ... @!SIMON : Di -- Dick Morris being one of your -- along with an interesting campaign team that you have , I must say . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Well , yeah . I have -- Howard Fineman is my spokesman . @!SIMON : Ne -- Newsweek correspondent . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Newswe -- he writes a glowing cover story for -- for Newsweek , and then leaves to become my spokesman . And he 's paid some money actually . Then Norm Ornstein ... @!SIMON : Norm Ornstein , who 's been on this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : Many times , I 'm sure . @!SIMON : ... the Washington pundit that bests all others . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah . He 's my campaign manager and then becomes White House chief of staff . I have an all-Jewish Cabinet . @!SIMON : Well , you -- now -- now when you appoint an all-Jewish Cabinet , there are -- there are people who suggest that this -- this -- this -- le -- let 's put it this way : forecloses taking advantage of the great wealth and diversity that makes the United States so great . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yes , but we -- it turns out that the American people are polled , and they agree that they do n't want a Cabinet that looks like America . They want a Cabinet the president can be comfortable with . So they -- they -- they 're fine . @!SIMON : I mean , parenthetical ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yes . @!SIMON : ... I think the inaugural address that you -- that you described here opens with just the most moving section . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!Mr-FRANKEN : President Clinton , Mrs. Rodham Clinton , Mr. Chief Justice , Mrs. Chief Justice , members of Congress , astronauts , ambassadors , my fellow Americans , before I begin today 's historic address , marking the peaceful transition of power and celebrating the awe-inspiring majesty of our remarkable democratic process , the Park Service police have asked me to make the following announcement . They have found a six-year-old girl answering to the name of Molly , who has become separated from her parents somewhere in the Mall area . Molly 's parents , if you can hear me , please identify yourselves to the nearest member of the Park Service police , who will escort you to the holding area . ' Woodward continues on , Morris could barely conceal his surprise at this unexpected wrinkle . No president in recent memory had started an inaugural address this way . Morris could n't help wondering if President Franken had made up the story of the little girl to begin the speech on a touchingly human note . " That 's exactly what I would have done , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the little girl slightly younger and possibly deaf . " ' @!SIMON : Did -- did Dick Morris have any -- I -- I 'm asking you a real question . Did he have any -- did he have any idea this was coming ? Did you talk to him about this at all ? @!Mr-FRANKEN : Well , not really . I -- Dick is someone I met ... @!SIMON : Yeah . @!Mr-FRANKEN : ... at the Jefferson Hotel , where he got in trouble . But I had breakfast with him and his wife ... @!SIMON : Right . @!Mr-FRANKEN : ... and liked his wife very much . And when the stuff broke about him with a prostitute ... @!SIMON : Was more ... ( unintelligible ) yeah . @!Mr-FRANKEN : I felt bad for his -- his -- for Elaine , his wife . So I called her up and -- ' cause he had given me his -- his numbers , and I got her on the phone and said , You know , I 'm really sorry , and -- and I read what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ read something and then -- I think it was really great what you said . ' And she said , Thank you . I 'll give you to Dick , ' and Dick answered and goes , Thank you for your support , Al , ' and I was kind of going , Well , OK . ' So he thinks that I called at a moment of crisis for him to support him . So I took advantage of that misconception to have him pose for some of the pictures in the book . But he read the book -- he read the book , and he -- even though -- he did not like the depiction of himself in the book . @!SIMON : Mm-hmm . But it 's a satire , you can always say . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah . That -- I mean , I do n't like the depiction of myself in the book . I mean ... @!SIMON : Well , one of the cruelest and I think most accurate parts of the book is -- is when you satirize the way press coverage changes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I mean , is it the Time cover story on Al Frank , which is -- it goes to ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : Newsweek. @!SIMON : Newsweek , Newsweek , which Howard writes . It -- it becomes adoring . @!Mr-FRANKEN : It 's a puff piece ... @!SIMON : Right . @!Mr-FRANKEN : ... which , you know , it has sentences like , He 's just impossible not to like ' ... @!SIMON : Right . Well -- well , I mean ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : ... and -- and things like that . It 's -- it 's sort of a parody of those kind of cover stories . @!SIMON : Here 's a section : Franken 's daily whirlwind campaign schedule would exhaust a man half his age . At 6:30 AM , Franken 's already been up for several hours in the middle of a 10-mile run on his treadmill , all while reading the last of the six newspapers he voraciously -- his voracious mind devours each day and giving an interview to an East Coast talk radio program on his cell phone . ' My favorite @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ back in Des Moines after a long drive , during which his superior night vision proves to be a lifesaver , Franken makes the most important call of the day to his wife , Frannie(ph) and kids Joe and Thomasin(ph). ' @!Mr-FRANKEN : Thomason(ph). @!SIMON : Thomason , yeah . So it -- it 's -- the press coverage goes from -- from being ignoring to ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : Adoring . @!SIMON : ... adoring , yeah , which is kind of how it happens when someone gets annoi -- annointed a front-runner . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah . And it -- it helps when you 've -- you 're -- you 're a dark horse and you come from behind . You know , it 's that -- that frenzy when you make your move and you 're everyone 's darling . And -- and it -- the press does not get critical until after I -- I 'm inaugurated , and then -- and then it turns very -- it goes south . @!SIMON : Hmm . All right . Well , let -- let 's talk a little bit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : There -- there -- there 's a -- a terrible faux pas hardly -- it -- it d -- does not encompass what we 're talking about . It -- it 's -- not long after President Franken 's inauguration , he walks into a -- I guess the Oval Office , and the most revered statesman in the world is waiting for him , Nelson Mandela . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah . @!SIMON : He 's the -- the beloved and highly esteemed , first democratically elected leader of South Africa . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah . You have to understand that President Franken is sort of experiencing a lot of bipolar episodes . He 's being heavily medicated with Zoloft and Prozac and diff -- different mixtures of stuff and never -- they 're never quite getting the right combo . So on a particular low point , Nelson Mandela 's there for him , and -- and he -- and he slugs Nelson Mandela in the stomach . @!SIMON : Well , we should -- should explain President Mandela ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : Well ... @!SIMON : ... does have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hand . @!Mr-FRANKEN : He has a fireplace poker in his hand . He was waiting for the -- the president , who was about an hour late , and he was poking the fire . @!SIMON : So President Franken , perhaps fearing anti-Semitic assault ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : Well , he -- thinking that -- I do n't know , that -- I do n't think it was anti-Semitic . He just thought that Nelson Mandela was going to hit him with the fire poker , I think . @!SIMON : And he -- he s -- he strikes the president , does n't he ? @!Mr-FRANKEN : He -- he -- he slugs him in the -- in the stomach and -- and ruptures his spleen . Anyway , because of these severe swings , there is a joint congressional committee to investigate the president 's mood swings , and they hold hearings . And the killer is that -- that they get ahold of my diaries , which are -- are very incriminating , and I 'm forced to resign . @!SIMON : I -- you must have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seeing now in the Senate or the -- the ones before that in the House of Representatives . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah . I -- I started this -- I actually sort of s -- conceived the book before the Monica Lewinsky thing broke , and then -- but I wrote it during the first six months of the -- the whole scandal . But I knew that I would not know how the whole thing would end up . I mean , it takes a while for a book to come out after you 've written it . So I just sort of wanted to write something that seemed to resonate with what was going on . @!SIMON : All right . Let -- let me get you to read a little bit from your resignation speech . Would you mind ? @!Mr-FRANKEN : Sure , sure . @!SIMON : I -- because I -- I think this is , in its own way , quite moving . @!Mr-FRANKEN : While I take full responsibility for the misfortunes that have befallen my presidency , others are not entirely without blame . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ staff and my administration , but I forgot . Sorry . I did , however , manage , with the reluctant assistance of Chief Justice Rehnquist , to pardon myself . This will enable me to retain the prerogatives of the next president , including my pension and office and staff at taxpayer expense , lifelong Secret Service protection and , eventually , burial in Arlington Cemetery beneath an eternal flame . It is my fondest wish that in the fullness of time , the American people will look back on the Franken presidency as something of a mixed bag and not as a complete disaster . ' @!SIMON : Ted Sorensen could n't have done a better job . Mr. Franken , thanks very much for being with us. @!Mr-FRANKEN : Oh , thank you . This has -- this has been a really fun interview . @!SIMON : Al Franken ... @!Mr-FRANKEN : I hope you can use some of it . @!SIMON : Well , we 'll see about that . Al Franken is the author of " Why Not Me ? , " the inside story of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . " @!Mr-FRANKEN : And watch " Lateline , " for God sakes , everybody . @!SIMON : I think I 've heard of that . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah . @!SIMON : I think I read about it in the intros , in fact . @!Mr-FRANKEN : Yeah , yeah . @!SIMON : Yeah . This is NPR 's WEEKEND EDITION . I 'm Scott Simon . 
##220963 SCOTT @!SIMON , host : This is NPR 's WEEKEND EDITION . I 'm Scott Simon . Former Senator DALE BUMPERS ( Former Senator from Arkansas ) : The American people are now and for some time have been asking to be allowed a good night 's sleep . They 're asking for an end to this nightmare . It is a legitimate request . @!SIMON : Former Senator Dale Bumpers of Arkansas speaking in behalf -- as he wound -- of the president of the United States -- as he wound up Mr. Clinton 's defense on the Senate floor on Thursday . Today , of course , is the second and final day of questioning , and our Dan Schorr joins us from up -- on Capitol Hill , at the Russell House Office Building . Dan , thanks for being with us. @!DAN-SCHORR-reporti : My pleasure . @!SIMON : And let 's begin with the news that 's breaking this morning . Judge Norma Holloway Johnson has ruled that Monica Lewinsky must cooperate with House prosecutors . As I understand it , this is not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , but taking them from independent counsel Kenneth Starr 's staff while the House managers listen in. @!SCHORR : That 's pre ... @!SIMON : Help explain this to us. @!SCHORR : All right . That 's precisely right . Well , Lewinsky -- Ms. Lewinsky has a -- an immunity agreement with the independent prosecutor -- with the independent counsel . Under that immunity agreement she 's supposed to cooperate -- cooperate with the independent counsel . Independent counsel , in turn , says it is now cooperating with the House impeachment inquiry , having submitted the referral , which in fact ignited this whole thing . Therefore , the judge says , OK , the House itself has no particular right to subpoena her , to interview her or -- or to ask for her testimony . Starr does . ' If Starr chooses to interview her and chooses to have Congressman Hyde or anybody else there , that apparently in -- is right . But it opens up a whole new difficult question . There was an enormous amount of discussion on this on the Senate floor , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's gone on . About a third of the questions are about this issue . First of all , it appears -- and the -- and the House managers admitted , that they had not consulted either the White House or the Senate before going ahead to get their interview with Ms. Lewinsky . This is in the form of an informal interview . If there 's no right to turn them over to the House , then I do n't quite see how they 're going to get her to be able to deliver live testimony before the Senate . @!SIMON : Well , a -- and , of course , is there not the prospect of a vote that -- that could -- you 'd better duck , Dan . It sounds like something 's going on over your head , there . @!SCHORR : Some ... @!SIMON : I imagine that 's the cleaning crew on Saturday . @!SCHORR : Somebody did n't like what I said . @!SIMON : We 'll send you up there with a hard hat next time . @!SCHORR : OK. @!SIMON : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ good prospect of a vote on Monday , does n't it , to dismiss the case ? @!SCHORR : That 's right . That 's the -- that 's the other aspect of this . I -- I know the vote you 're talking about . I 'll get to it later . But -- but another thing that has enraged the White House and , in fact , several senators is that they had an agreement that provided that they go through the opening phase of the testimony , and then on -- next Monday , there would be a resolution offered which would call for calling witnesses or calling of the depositions first , and if the agreement was that -- to discuss between the two parties on Monday what they do about witnesses , then how come that -- that -- Hyde has jumped the gun and gone to grab a witness ? How does he know he 's going to be able to produce her ? All right . Then -- then there is the other vote that 's coming . That is a vote which is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that great traditionalist of the Senate , and it calls for saying , Let 's call the whole thing off , ' so to speak . @!SIMON : Right . @!SCHORR : It 's what 's called a summary motion to dismiss . And his reasoning is , We 're not -- they 're not going to win anyway , nobody 's going to win . You 'll never get the two-thirds vote , the thing has -- fon -- gone far beyond what the American people want . They want to get rid of this . They want to get out of this nightmare , so let 's simply say it 's all over . ' @!SIMON : Well , now , of course , we ought to note that in an interview with National Public Radio , as a matter of fact , Republican Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah had another idea , which I guess bears some discussion . That would essentially be to adjourn the proceedings and say -- and say what ? @!SCHORR : Yeah . Right . It 's -- it is now generally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be wrong -- but the general assumption is that the motion to dismiss will go down , that on a procedural issue of this sort , party lines will hold , and the 55 Republicans can probably muster a majority to -- to force this resolution out . On the other hand , what it will show is the enormous amount of strength against removal of the president , making it very clear at that point that they never will get the necessary 67 votes . So Senator Hatch says , Look , we 're not going to win this thing . We want to get something out of it . Why do n't we offer a motion -- and I 'm thinking of doing it , ' he says . He has n't quite decided -- thinking of offering a motion to dismiss the charges . No , excuse me -- he 's offering a motion to adjourn the -- he -- the -- the trial . @!SIMON : Right . @!SCHORR : By adjourning the trial , they simply stop where -- he said , you know , Well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really censure enough . The House has called him a lot of names , and that 's enough , and we 'll go with that . ' I do n't know whether that formula will last , but it 's clear that starting as of now and maybe for a few days , senators on the Republican and Democratic side are very busy looking for a face-saving exit . @!SIMON : Well , let -- well , let ... @!SCHORR : They want it over , and they want it over in a way that will not unduly humiliate their House colleagues . @!SIMON : And -- and -- and so there is the prospect that Ms. Lewinsky might be compelled to hop -- cooperate with House managers , but they wo n't have a forum for their questions . @!SCHORR : They wo n't -- I -- I -- unless I am wrong , and this has not appeared on the wires anywhere , they will not be able to bring her before the Senate . I do n't -- whether they say that they can -- theoretically say that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ senators sit and listen or something like that . But as of now , the judge says only Starr c -- the inde -- independent counsel can interview her , yes , and House people if they want to , and they 're admitted , can sit there and listen . That 's all that the judge has agreed to . @!SIMON : I -- in the maelstrom of -- of events , of course , that -- that occurred this week , which you 've been covering up on the Hill , at the same time , in the same place , President Clinton appeared and gave what was universally acknowledged to be a very impressive account of himself in the State of the Union . What are some of the critical points that -- that he emphasized in a -- in a lengthy speech ? @!SCHORR : Right . That 's right . Meanwhile , while all that 's going on , the president is hopping around the country , lapping up the adulation he 's getting from people after his State of the Union address , which had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- helping Medicare , helping education , the suit against tobacco companies . Probably the most important was the proposal , or the idea for a proposal , with regard to Social Security ; that is , to pump a lot of the surplus into Social Security and then let the Social Security Administration , through a newly created organization , get into the stock market . That moves part of the way towards the Republican position , who want to privatize Social Security and let people have individual accounts . Instead , they say , Well , we think the government can do better entering the stock market than the individual can . ' It is at least a beginning of a colloquy on that subject . @!SIMON : Now we should note , of course , that the Federal Reserve chairman , Mr. Greenspan , does n't think this is such a wise idea . @!SCHORR : That 's right . He 's -- his argument is -- and it 's shared by several other people that I 've heard -- his argument is that if you do that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the stock market , and are we not a -- a little worried when we find out that the government has that much control over -- over Wall Street ? Well , that argument has been made , and -- and they have to find a way of countering it . @!SIMON : Does the president 's impressive performance -- and it was called exactly that -- in the State of the Union address suggest that he 's not a weakened president so much as the administration is distracted , that he still has ... @!SCHORR : Well ... @!SIMON : ... a great deal of political power ? @!SCHORR : A lot of people tell me they think the president is weakened , but when I look around for where he 's weakened , I have trouble finding it . I do n't think he 's any worse off with Congress than he was about a year ago today . Then also he had a laundry list of initiatives , a great many of which were not adopted , went nowhere . He -- most important , however , is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ State of the Union address -- which everybody says was a pretty skillful thing to do considering all the trouble he 's in -- and then they went through the roof on opinion polls , which -- between -- somewhere between 66 percent and 76 percent . That , of course , filters back into the sacred halls here of the Senate , because they 're going to have to decide do they really want -- how long to they want to go on bucking a man so immensely popular . @!SIMON : Let me ask you a -- explicit question in the 10 seconds we have left . Will we be talking about this again in -- in three weeks ? @!SCHORR : Oh , yes , we 'll be talking about -- I think we 'll be talking about it for a long time . The surprises keep coming , and I do n't think that the House managers will give up easily , so they 'll find a way of prolonging it . @!SIMON : Thanks very much , Dan Schorr. @!SCHORR : Sure thing . 