
##221450 THE PROSECUTION qwq @ ( Footage-from-court Unidentified Judge : Ladies and gentlemen , you have now been selected and sworn as the jury to try the case of the State of Florida versus Adrian Crump . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Nine months after Adrian Crump shot and killed Danny Adams , his trial for manslaughter is under way . @!Mr-HOWARD-MALTZ-@1 : The evidence will show that the defendant clearly could have avoided using deadly force against Daniel Adams . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) The prosecutors present their case first . @!Mr-MALTZ : The defendant 's claim of accidental self-defense is not accurate . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Over the next three days , they will try to prove that Adrian Crump acted with reckless disregard for human life by leaving his house with his gun , cocking it and aiming it at the teen-age boy . @!Mr-MALTZ : The gun did not go off by accident , and Daniel Adams was not reaching down for anything . @!Mr-KEN-BOSTON-@1Pr : The state calls Steven McNulty. @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Steven McNulty was sitting next to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Danny take his hands and reach like this , down toward the floor ? @!STEVE-McNULTY-@1Da : No , sir . No , sir . @!Mr-BOSTON : Did you ever see Danny reach for Danny 's wrist -- waist , I 'm sorry -- this way ? @!STEVE : No , sir . @!Mr-BOSTON : Did you ever see Danny , with Danny 's own hand , reach toward the center ? @!STEVE : No , sir . @!Mr-TOM-FALLIS-@1La : Mr. McNulty , would you agree that when Mr. Crump came ov -- came over to the car , you were nervous , correct ? @!STEVE : Yes , sir . @!Mr-FALLIS : And were you not focusing on Mr. Crump when Mr. Crump came over ? @!STEVE : Yes , sir . @!Mr-FALLIS : OK . And your focus -- Is n't that true ? -- was on Mr. Crump more than it was on Danny Adams ? @!STEVE : Yes , sir . @!Mr-FALLIS : OK. @!Mr-MALTZ : Good afternoon . @!Mr-MULIFAH-SCHIPLO : Good afternoon , sir . @!Mr-MALTZ : State your name , please . @!Mr-SCHIPLORO : Mulifah Schiploro. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ autopsy on Danny Adams . @!Mr-MALTZ : Do you have an opinion as to the positioning of Daniel Adams ' body and his left arm when shot ? @!Mr-SCHIPLORO : Yes , sir . You have to give me your armpit forward , or to that side . Judge : Cross-examination. @!Mr-FALLIS : There is no way that you could tell this jury today , at the time that this bullet entered Danny Adams ' body , that his hands were up this way , this way , this way or even this way , correct ? @!Mr-SCHIPLORO : I can not tell . @!Mr-FALLIS : Right . No questions , Your Honor . @!Mr-BOSTON : Your Honor , the state would call Macarthur Wright . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Macarthur Wright was in the back seat firing slingshots. @!Mr-BOSTON : What happened after you got the rocks ? @!MACARTHUR-WRIGHT-@ : We got back in the car , and Daniel Adams shot out the window of a truck . @!Mr-BOSTON : And what did you all do ? @!MACARTHUR : We drove around the corner . @!Mr-BOSTON : And what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ slingshot and shot at a house . @!Mr-BOSTON : Danny shot as the car was moving , and you all made a right . Can you show the jury on this diagram where the car came to stop ? @!MACARTHUR : The car came to stop about right here . @!Mr-FALLIS : Mr. Wright , there cam -- did come a time the state attorney 's office filed 11 felony charges , correct ? @!MACARTHUR : Yes , sir . @!Mr-FALLIS : And the charges were ' hurling deadly missile . ' @!MACARTHUR : Yes , sir . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Adrian Crump 's lawyer , Tom Fallis , wants to cast as much doubt as he can on Danny Adams ' friends ... @!Mr-FALLIS : And you 're saying that Mr. Crump 's car came exactly parallel , right ? @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) ... and their version of what happened that night . @!Mr-FALLIS : But that 's not what it was , was it ? @!MACARTHUR : No , sir . @!Mr-FALLIS : As a matter of fact , Mr. Crump 's car was further @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't remember , sir . @!Mr-FALLIS : You do n't remember where Mr. Crump 's car was ? @!MACARTHUR : Not exactly . @!Mr-FALLIS : OK . But you told Mr. Boston and this jury that this is where it was , did n't you ? @!MACARTHUR : Yes . @!Mr-FALLIS : Thank you . No further questions , Judge . Judge : Mr. Fallis , please do n't throw the exhibits around the courtroom . @!Mr-FALLIS : I 'm sorry , Your Honor . I apologize . Judge : Walk over there and pick it up . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Is there something we should be looking for during the trial that will give us a hint ... @(Footage-of-Goldber) @!GOLDBERG : ... as to which way it 's going , in -- in the state 's favor or in the defense 's favor ? @!Mr-MALTZ : Whoever 's screaming and yelling the loudest . Watch the lawyers . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Is what , losing ? @!Mr-MALTZ : ( Voiceover ) Is usually losing . qwq @ ( Footage-from-the-c Unidentified Woman 1 : ( From radio @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in prison and the end of his 19-year Navy career if he is found guilty . @!Mr-FALLIS : I 'm cool . I 'm cool , Adrian . I 'm all -- I 'm all -- I 'll be all right , Adrian . @!Mr-CRUMP : I got my life on the line . @!Mr-FALLIS : I know , Adrian . I 'll be fine , OK ? @!Mr-CRUMP : OK. @!Mr-MALTZ : Tom Pulley , please . Tom Pulley ? @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Thomas Pulley is a firearms expert for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement . The state wants to show it would be hard to accidentally pull the trigger . @!Mr-MALTZ : Is that what 's called a hairline trigger ? @!Mr-THOMAS-PULLEY-@ : A hair trigger ? No , sir . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Tom Fallis wants to show it would be easy . @!Mr-FALLIS : OK , well , would you agree that you can probably pull this trigger with the same ease as it takes to -- to push a ballpoint pen ? I ask you to try it . Think about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than that , did it ? @!Mr-PULLEY : Some have been harder , some have been easier . Judge : You may proceed . Unidentified Man 1 : State your name , please . @!Ms-CYNTHIA-WEATHER : Cynthia Weatherly. @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) She 's the 911 operator who answered Adrian Crump 's first call ... @(Begin-excerpt-of-p) @!Mr-CRUMP : Yes , operator ? @!Ms-WEATHERLY : Uh-huh . @!Mr-CRUMP : I got an emergency . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) ... in which he referred to himself as a pretty good shot . @!Ms-WEATHERLY : And you think you shot one of them ? @!Mr-CRUMP : I think so . @!Ms-WEATHERLY : What makes you thi -- think that ? @!Mr-CRUMP : I do n't know , miss . I 'm a -- I think I 'm a pretty good shot . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) To the prosecutors , that indicates the shooting was no accident . @!Mr-CRUMP : I 'm not sure . I do n't know whe -- to -- I do n't know -- I do n't know -- I do n't know which way they run @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get someone out there . @!Mr-CRUMP : All right . @(End-of-excerpt) qwq @ ( Footage-of-Crump-c qwq @ ( Footage-of-Reporte Unidentified Reporter 1 : Just moments ago , the state rested their case against Adrian Crump . Reliving the events of February 1st in court today appeared to be extremely tough for Adrian Crump . qwq @ ( Footage-from-court Unidentified Reporter 2 : ( Voiceover ) Prosecutors also showed the .38 revolver that Crump used to shoot at him . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Reporte Unidentified Reporter 2 : At some point , most likely tomorrow , we 'll hear from Adrian Crump himself . He will take the stand to tell his side of what happened that night last February . @(Footage-of-Goldber) @!GOLDBERG : Are you ready for tomorrow ? @!Mr-CRUMP : I 'm going to try . I 've got to go through with it . @(Footage-of-Crump-a) @!Mr-CRUMP : ( Voiceover ) Yes , I just want to be heard . I did n't intend to hurt nobody that night . @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) He faces 17 years in prison and the end of his career . qwq @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nothing but the truth , sir ? @!Mr-CRUMP : Yes , ma'am . Woman 2 : Thank you , sir ... @!GOLDBERG : ( Voiceover ) Next , Adrian Crump tries to save himself . @!Mr-CRUMP : How you doing , sir ? 
##221451 DO N'T LOOK NOW qwq @ ( Footage-of-a-unide Unidentified Woman 1 : OK , now I 'll tell you what we 're going to do . Mommy 's going to go in here , and she 's going to watch us , and we 're going to go in here . I 'm going to show you the toy , OK ? qwq @ ( Footage-of-Woman-# Woman 1 : You sit in this chair , and I 'll show you how the toy works . @!ERIN-MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Three-year-old Gabrielle Petangelo is about to take a test , a test of her honesty . Woman 1 : Do n't turn around . Look that way . Can you look that way ? OK . I 'm going to put a toy here . I do n't want you to peek , OK ? @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-MICHAEL-LEWIS-@ : Children at very young ages learn -- and we 're not quite sure how they learn this -- but they learn to hide what they feel or think inside them . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Psychologist Michael Lewis is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ study it in actually a very , very simple way . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) He arranged a demonstration of his experiments at the Robert Wood Johnson Medical School in New Jersey . @!Mr-LEWIS : We take a child and we bring the child into the room . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Woman-# Woman 1 : Now do n't peek. @!Mr-LEWIS : ( Voiceover ) Then we take out of a bag , a toy ; and we make plenty of noise and we set it up behind the child . Woman 1 : Now listen , I 'm going to go out in the hallway for a minute . I 'll be right back . When I come back , we 're going to play , OK ? So do n't peek , OK ? I 'll be right back . @!Mr-LEWIS : ( Voiceover ) We actually are hoping that the kids will peek. @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Now do they have any idea anyone 's watching them ? @!Mr-LEWIS : ( Voiceover ) They have no idea . What they see is simply a mirror . @(Footage-of-Gabriel) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we watch little Gabrielle nervously resist the temptation to check out the toy behind her . @!Mr-LEWIS : ( Voiceover ) About 15 percent of the children do n't peek. @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) But most children do what little Gabrielle finally did . @(Footage-of-Gabriel) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) And now the critical part of the honesty test . Will she admit she looked ? qwq @ ( Woman-#-1-walks-ba Woman 1 : Did you peek ? qwq @ ( Gabrielle-shakes-h Woman 1 : No ? OK , let 's play with the toy . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Is there any child that does n't lie ? @!Mr-LEWIS : Are there any -- I do not believe that we could find any child that does n't lie . I do n't think that exists . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Woman-# Woman 1 : Do n't turn around . Just -- stay just like that . No peeking. @!Mr-LEWIS : About 30 percent of them admit it at two-and-a-half to three years of age . By the time they reach five to seven years of age , that percentage drops down to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more . @(Footage-of-Woman-#) @!ROBERT : I turn around ? This ? Woman 1 : Did you peek ? Robert , Robert ... @!ROBERT : No . Woman 1 : ... did you peek ? @!ROBERT : No . Woman 1 : No ? OK. @(Footage-of-a-child) @!Mr-LEWIS : ( Voiceover ) Brighter children are more likely to lie than duller children . qwq @ ( Woman-#-1-walks-ba Woman 1 : Did you peek ? No ? OK , good . All right , let 's play . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) What does that mean ? @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-LEWIS : It means , essentially , the children are learning a rule of how the society works . The fact of the matter is we lie all the time . The society is -- simply would not work if we did not lie . @(Footage-of-a-group) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) You could probably guess how parents react to the test . Unidentified Woman 2 : I kind of feel -- part of it really disappoints me , like I want them to be these -- my children to be these real honest , open @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to me , it really bothers me. qwq @ ( Footage-of-Woman-# Woman 1 : Did you peek ? Unidentified Child 1 : No . Woman 1 : No ? OK , turn around . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-LEWIS : Every mom with her child is upset , not because only the child lied , but first and foremost , ' My child lied to me. ' @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-LEWIS : We study the -- the muscles in the face here . Of course , she 's quite nervous . Her eyes are moving up . All that behavior we score so we ... @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) There was one other child we watched , Amanda Bribell. qwq @ ( Footage-of-Woman-# Woman 1 : OK . Do n't turn around . @!AMANDA-BRIBELL : I wo n't . Woman 1 : I 'll be right back . I 'll be right back . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) She stayed in the room for more than two and a half minutes , and Lewis never spotted her taking a peek . Woman 1 : Did you peek ? @!AMANDA : No . Woman 1 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1 : All right , good girl . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) If she did lie , would we be able to tell by any expression in her face ? @!Mr-LEWIS : No . That 's the -- that 's one of the most interesting of our findings . If we could hold the face when she says no , and hold the face when the young boy says no , we would see they have the same kind of smile ; and we could n't tell the difference between them . qwq @ ( Footage-of-a-group Unidentified Woman 3 : I was surprised that she did n't look . I guess I feel proud . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-LEWIS : If you are interested in having your child not lie , you 're going to have a very difficult time of it , because most people lie . They lie to themselves , and they lie to others . @(Footage-of-Woman-#) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) One final postscript ; when we returned to 48 HOURS and looked closely at a tape from a second camera that we had hidden in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Lewis had missed something in the lab . There she goes , little Amanda Bribell , sneaking a peek at the toys behind her . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : What would the world be like if no one lied ? @!Mr-LEWIS : Oh , it would be unbearable . It would be absolutely unbearable . Telling the truth all the time to one 's self and to others would smooth some rough spots but would also produce rough spots . @!MORIARTY : Be very painful . @!Mr-LEWIS : It would be sometimes very painful . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Woman-# Woman 1 : Did you peek ? @!AMANDA : No . Woman 1 : You did n't ? @(Theme-music) @!RATHER : Is there such a thing as a harmless lie or even a helpful lie ? That 's a personal judgment only you can make . As you just saw , kids learn pretty quickly that lying is part of life . According to our poll , only 20 percent of young adults believe they can always rely on the people around them to tell the truth . Where 's George Washington when @ @ @ @ 
##221453 @(Theme-music) @!TROUBLE-IN-PARADIS# qwq @ ( Footage-from-Monta Unidentified Man 1 : ( Voiceover ) We think Montana 's the last best place . @!JERRY-BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) Along Montana 's Yellowstone River , there 's talk , these days , about the new land use and logging bill . Up the road in Livingston , there 's concern the store signs are getting too big , getting in the way of the beauty of the place . But the hottest story in southwest Montana comes from more than 1,000 miles away . qwq @ ( Footage-of-people- Unidentified Man 2 : The Waco incident ... Unidentified Man 3 : It 's really unfortunate . Unidentified Man 4 : I think it 's a tragedy . @!Ms-KATHY-SCHMOOK-@ : What they 've got in Waco is a preview -- a mere preview of what we could have here . qwq @ ( Newspaper-headline @(Footage-from-the-L) @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) The cult is front-page news just about every day in this part of Montana . @(Footage-of-Bowen-a) @!Mr-JOHN-SULLIVAN-@ : It 's a reminder that we have a similar situation , if not more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ town . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) John Sullivan is the publisher of the Livingston Enterprise . @!Mr-SULLIVAN : Waco is part of a state that likes to brag about having the biggest and the best , as I said in the column , and -- and at least on the area of armed cults , we 've got a bigger one . @(Footage-of-Bowen) @!BOWEN : It was 12 years ago when life in this majestic part of the world began to change and some people began to worry . That 's when the religious group from Southern California came in , the Church Universal and Triumphant , C-U-T or CUT as the locals call it . CUT bought up thousands of acres of ranch land here in the Paradise Valley and then the members came , as many as 2,000 members , practicing a new-age ' doomsday is near ' religion led by a charismatic woman they called Guru Ma. @(Footage-of-Elizabe) @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) She 's Elizabeth Clare Profit and she married into the church , the church started by her late husband , a vacuum cleaner salesman @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ number of people , including Queen Guinivere. @!Ms-ELIZABETH-CLARE : And I anchor here my causal body of love . @(Footage-of-Bowen-a) @!Mr-PETE-STORY-@1Mo : The Crow Indians were kind of our allies , and this was Crow country . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) Pete Story 's family has been in this valley from territorial days . His forebears were the first to bring ranching to Paradise Valley . @!Mr-STORY : Well , my great granddad , though , got along well with the Indians . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) And in that tradition , Pete welcomed the church and its members when they first came . @!Mr-STORY : Now you can see that thing up ahead of you . See that big arch ? That is a entrance to a bomb shelter . @!BOWEN : What 's a bomb shelter doing out there ? @!Mr-STORY : One of the rumors is that they do have armored vehicles . And if they do , that 's probably where they are . This thing made me mad . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) But if the bomb shelter made him mad , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : I think those are gun slits. @!BOWEN : On the edge of your property ? @!Mr-STORY : It 's an anathema to me . We -- we think it 's entirely inappropriate to have that structure in this beautiful , peaceful valley . @!BOWEN : Do you take it as hostile action ? @!Mr-STORY : Yes . Good neighbors do n't build fortifications between themselves . @(A-man-walks-by-Bow) @!BOWEN : Excuse me , excuse me . Hi . Could we talk to you for a minute ? We 're curious about the structure up here . Can you tell us what it 's all about . Unidentified Man 5 : That 's a stone -- stone structure . We use it to -- to hold our towers , our radio . That 's what we use it for . @!BOWEN : Uh-huh . But are those truly gun slits there where you can ... Man 5 : No , there 's no gun slits. @!BOWEN : No ? Man 5 : No . Those are observation windows . @!BOWEN : This is not a heavily armed enclave ? Man 5 : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I would say honestly that -- that if -- if we had as -- as many o -- guns as Pete has in his house , I 'd be surprised . @(Footage-of-firearm) @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) It 's more than what Pete and others in the valley see ; it 's what they 've had hints of that shakes them up . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Elizabe Unidentified Man 6 : The firearms we sought to acquire were to be used only for defensive purposes . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) Three years ago , Guru Ma 's current husband , himself a church vice president , was convicted of illegal arms dealings . Authorities found weapons and documents . @(Footage-of-Bowen-a) @!Mr-SULLIVAN : And -- and the documents obviously show that they really had a massive plan to arm themselves to the teeth ; one reference here to equip an army of 200 men . This is parts for AR-15s , which is an automatic or semiautomatic rifle . @!BOWEN : Not a hunting rifle . @!Mr-SULLIVAN : Not a hunting rifle . And -- and when they say they 've @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean , that just does n't cut it . This one refe -- refers to something being a real man stopper . It ranges up to 400 yards . Here 's correspondence relating to their wishes to purchase a tank . @!BOWEN : A tank ? @!Mr-SULLIVAN : Right . There 's an outfit in New Jersey known -- called Tanks A Lot , believe it or not , and I do n't know a gopher in Park County that needs a tank to wipe it out . @!BOWEN : What is the threat ? What 's the threat to the outside world as long as they 're doing their thing back behind the barbed wire ? @!Mr-SULLIVAN : Well , I guess you could ask the same question down in Waco , could n't you ? @(Footage-of-Bowen-a) @!Ms-SCHMOOK : Fifty-caliber barret semiautomatic weapon with armor-piercing ammunition . You know what that would do to a buffalo ? Instant sausage . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) Kathy Schmook , writer , activist and surrounded by church members . @!Ms-SCHMOOK : They 're a very , very dangerous group , and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they are . Only Elizabeth Profit knows . @(Footage-of-Profit-) @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) We wanted to ask the church leader about the allegations . At first , we were refused an interview , but after we 'd spoken to critics in the community , she was made available to us , in New York , while preaching how to plug into God every day . @!Ms-PROFIT : Plug into God frequently , easily , quickly , for 30 seconds . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) We asked about the alleged powerful weapons . @(Footage-of-Bowen-a) @!Ms-PROFIT : I have never seen them . I have never seen them . @(Document-showing-t) @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) We asked about the documents concerning the alleged intentions of church members to buy tanks . @!Ms-PROFIT : There are no tanks . I mean , if -- if there was a tank on church property , a whole world would have seen it arrive . @(Footage-of-Bowen-a) @!Mr-DON-TROWBRIDGE- : My involvement was to be a truck driver for them . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) Don Trowbridge was in the church 10 years . @!Mr-TROWBRIDGE : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ammunition , and a sizable amount to fic -- to pick -- to fill up the back of a -- of a flatbed , and they were hiding it , you know . They -- they were n't out in the open . They were down -- locked down in the basement of this barn . @(Footage-of-Bowen-a) @!Ms-PROFIT : We are totally opposed to violence . Violence has come to us in the -- in the -- in the form of persecution , very intense persecution , including crossing the line of truth and inventing rumors. @(Footage-from-Monta) @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) But whether it 's truth or rumor or a mix of both , it 's got the citizens of Paradise Valley worried , worried that the next standoff might be here . qwq @ ( Footage-of-people- Unidentified Woman 1 : This is the largest survivalist cult in the world , so that 's why we look at Waco as maybe a trial run . Unidentified Man 7 : You take underground shelters and loads of weapons and , you know , you mix them all up and you 've @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Here you go . @!BOWEN : ( Voiceover ) But the great grandson of the friend of the Crow Indians says maybe his church neighbors will learn something from the events in Texas . @(Footage-of-a-truck) @!Mr-STORY : ( Voiceover ) Eventually , they 'll be aware of the futility of withstanding lawful authority . I think it 's a tragedy that -- that may prevent future tragedies . I hope that will be the case . @(Theme-music) 
##221455 @(Theme-music) @!WAITING-IT-OUT-# @(Footage-of-a-group) @!Ms-BELINDA-GANUM-@ : @(Voiceover) I 've come here for my kid . No , that 's not the Branch Davidian compound . That 's somebody else 's farm . Where is it exactly ? Can you point to it ? Unidentified Man 1 : Yeah ... @!SCOTT-PELLEY : @(Voiceover) On a hillside outside Waco , a mother searches for her son . @!Ms-GANUM : Well -- oh , God . It 's on the horizon . It 's really -- it 's -- we 're a long way from it . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) She 's been here nearly a week . @!Ms-GANUM : I do n't know who 's in there alive . I do n't know who 's in there wounded or other . I have no information . Nobody does . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) And Belinda Ganum still does n't know whether her son is dead or alive in the Davidian compound . @!Ms-GANUM : He knows I 'm here . @!PELLEY : How does he know ? @!Ms-GANUM : Because he knows me . He knows I 'm here because he knows @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in there is , Dave Thibodeaux knows his mom 's here because that 's the kind of , you know , friend he 's got in his mother . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) David 's mother came from Bangor , Maine , to find her 24-year-old son and to solve a mystery . @!Ms-GANUM : And in many ways , I just do n't know what the truth could even possibly be . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) Is the man in the compound still David , the son she raised and loved ? @(Photo-of-David-sho) @!Ms-GANUM : I would like to get a sense of what my son 's role is in this whole nightmare . @(Footage-of-a-band) @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) The spirit that moved Dave to Waco two years ago was music . He was David Koresh 's drummer . @(Footage-of-Pelley-) @!PELLEY : So in his way , this was paradise for him . @!Ms-GANUM : He did not come into this from the spiritual aspect first . That happened later on because it 's part and parcel with -- with , you know , the atmosphere , with the community . @!PELLEY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ yeah , it did happen . He started to study the scripture . He started to , you know , wonder . He started to develop questions . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!Ms-GANUM : Hi . Did you come here when it was The Cue Sticks ? @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) She 's working the bars he used to play ... @!Ms-GANUM : I am Belinda Ganum , and Dave Thibodeaux is my son , and I 'm so glad that you came . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) ... talking to the people he used to know . Unidentified Man 2 : Your son -- he -- you know , he did n't seem like he was caught up in it like a robot as much . I like Dave a lot . You know , he was the only one that , like I said , I considered a friend out of the whole group . @!Ms-GANUM : Thank you . Thank you . @(Footage-of-Pelley-) @!Ms-GANUM : We would say to him , ' Dave , you know , what are you doing ? How are you earning your money ? ' And it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm being payed to play the drums . I 'm a musician . ' @(Footage-of-a-group) @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) The need to hear those drums brought her to the hillside tonight . Yesterday there were reports of music from the compound . @(Footage-of-Pelley-) @!PELLEY : And if it is live music , what does that mean ? @!Ms-GANUM : Well , it means that -- it means the band 's intact . @!PELLEY : And if you hear drums ? @!Ms-GANUM : It means that my kid might be playing them . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) Nothing was heard the rest of the night . The days drag on . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!Ms-GANUM : @(Voiceover) I just have n't had enough sleep . qwq @ ( Footage-of-people- Unidentified Man 3 : You all sold about 30 yesterday and about 70 today . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) Belinda is offended by the circus ... Unidentified Woman 1 : ... because he makes fun of my Jesus , so I want to poke fun at him . Unidentified Man 4 : You 've got to look at the skyline . It 's getting a little dark . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by publicity . @(Footage-of-reporte) @!Ms-GANUM : That 's it . That 's it . It ends right here . It ends right here . @(Voiceover) These people here are experiencing an event . Unidentified Man 5 : Hey , come on ! Come on ! @!Ms-GANUM : @(Voiceover) I 'm experiencing a nightmare . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) At the center of attention , she tries to stand up for her son and question the official version of the shoot-out . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!Ms-GANUM : Just present an opposing view from what the world seems to have right now . There 's an armed situation that has his safety in -- in jeopardy and I do n't think that 's his fault . Unidentified Reporter 1 : Who 's in charge ... Unidentified Reporter 2 : What 's your name , ma'am ? @(Footage-of-Pelley-) @!Ms-GANUM : How did this happen ? Why did this happen ? How did this attack ever come about ? @!PELLEY : I think , to be honest , a lot of people at home may be saying to themselves right now , ' When a policeman comes to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!Ms-GANUM : I think , again , like I say , that when a policeman comes to your door , he does n't shoot at you . I mean , I do n't know what the facts are . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) Every morning , she looks for news . Is Dave alive ? Unidentified Man 6 : ( from news report ) ... that Mr. Koresh had indicated that these individuals were free to leave at any time . The individuals contacted were David Thibodeaux ... @!Ms-GANUM : Oh , thank God they contacted him . @!PELLEY : They 've talked to him . @!Ms-GANUM : Yes , that 's incredible . That 's incredible . That 's incredible . Now I know he 's not one of the dead people inside the compound . Oh , my God . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) He 's alive , but not safe . Man 6 : ( from news report ) We have discussions with Koresh . He has made such statements as ' We are ready for war . Let 's get it on . ' @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) Belinda @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saw her son . qwq @ ( Photo-of-David-sho @(Footage-of-Pelley-) @!Ms-GANUM : We were taking a walk somewhere and he held my hand for a moment , and I think that that 's the worst of it , is wondering if that 's ever going to happen to me again because I remember so clearly what that feels like . That 's where the pain comes from . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) After 12 days waiting in Waco ... @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!Ms-GANUM : Hi , Eddy , it 's really me , Davey Thibodeaux 's mom . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) ... Belinda has found someone who used to play in Dave 's band . @!EDDY-@1David's-Fri : It 's nice to meet you . @!Ms-GANUM : It 's great to meet you . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) She sees her son at last ... @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!Ms-GANUM : There he is ! Oh , my God ! There 's David ! @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) ... if only on videotape. @!Ms-GANUM : David 's good , huh ? I know he 's a good drummer . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) And there 's someone else . @!Ms-GANUM : Ooh @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ David Koresh . @!EDDY : And if you could talk to him , he 'd walk right out of there . @!Ms-GANUM : Well , thank you . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) The strain is showing . @!Ms-GANUM : I hope I see you again . ( starts crying ) @!EDDY : You make sure you call me. @!Ms-GANUM : OK , I promise I will as soon as I know something . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) There is something she does n't know , something Dave 's friend told us. @(Footage-of-Pelley-) @!EDDY : I asked him point blank if -- you know , if he really thought David was Jesus Christ , and he told me yeah . @!PELLEY : Did you ever say to him , ' Dave , this is nuts , you ought to get out of there ' ? @!EDDY : I said , ' You know , if -- if you want to get out of here , man , I 've got a place you can stay until , you know , you can get home or whatever , ' but , I mean , he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to go ? @!EDDY : Mm-mm . He believes in what David 's teaching . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) Belinda is holding on to the hope that her son is innocent . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) But evidence is mounting . It may not be so . @(Footage-from-a-pre) @!PELLEY : Your negotiators have been in contact with Dave Thibodeaux . What has he told you about his welfare and his intentions ? Unidentified Man 7 : That he 's there of his own free will . He wants to remain . @(Footage-of-Pelley-) @!Ms-GANUM : My primary feeling right now is that he 's prepared to go down with his master . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) Her only way to reach him is a tape to be delivered by the FBI . @(Footage-of-Belinda) @!Ms-GANUM : Hi , Dave , this is Mom . I 'm here in Waco with Bob , your uncle , my brother . @!PELLEY : @(Voiceover) She wants him to know that even if he has changed ... @!Ms-GANUM : Do n't make me wait too much longer because it 's really hard not to be with you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has not . @!Ms-GANUM : I just want David to know that I am here , and when he 's ready to walk out , he will not be facing anything alone . qwq @ ( Photo-of-Dave-show @(Theme-music) 
##221456 @(Theme-music) @!UNDER-FIRE-# @(Footage-of-a-room-) @!Mr-STEVEN-HIGGINS- : ( Voiceover ) These guns have come off the street , semiautomatics . These are the MAC-10s and ... @!ERIN-MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Illegal firearms . @!Mr-HIGGINS : ( Voiceover ) ... pistols , revolvers . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) That 's what the Bureau of Alcohol , Tobacco and Firearms goes after ... @!Mr-HIGGINS : ( Voiceover ) The larger 9 millimeter handguns. @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) ... and what agents were looking for in David Koresh 's compound . @!Mr-HIGGINS : ( Voiceover ) AR-15s , other types of -- of long guns . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Do you have any idea of how much firepower like this he may have ? @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-HIGGINS : We 're certainly talking about dozens if not hundreds of weapons like this and others . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Steven Higgins is the director of this arm of the Treasury . Is that illegal , to collect guns like this ? @!Mr-HIGGINS : It 's not al -- it 's not illegal to collect guns like this . What @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and you convert it to fire automatically . We know that -- that certain parts have been ordered and -- and they have that capability to do that . We suspect that that 's probably been done . @!MORIARTY : Is that how the ATF got involved then ? @!Mr-HIGGINS : Yes . @(Footage-from-the-s) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Involved in what turned out to be one of the deadliest days in ATF 's history . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Did you feel and did the agency feel there was an urgency about getting into the compound ? @!Mr-HIGGINS : Once we had enough information that we felt justified getting the -- the search warrants and the arrest warrants , we moved and we acted . @(Footage-of-the-sta) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) The plan to serve those warrants followed months of training . Agents expected to get into the compound and separate the weapons from those who could use them . @!Mr-HIGGINS : ( Voiceover ) But they were waiting for us . It was simply an ambush. @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : While there 's a lot that we still do n't know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on which everyone agrees , that the ATF raid relied on the element of surprise , and yet at least two television stations in Waco report that they had learned from their own sources not only what was about to happen , but when . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Do you believe that David Koresh was tipped off ? @!Mr-HIGGINS : Yes . @!MORIARTY : Do you know who -- who did tip him off ? @!Mr-HIGGINS : I believe that -- I have -- I -- I think that I probably know who tipped him off at this point , but there 's still a lot of investigation to be done . @!MORIARTY : Can you gi -- give me at least a general idea where the tip came ? Did it come from media ? Did it come from other law enforcement ? Did it come from people in the town ? Where do you think the tip came from ? @!Mr-HIGGINS : I would n't want to say that right now . qwq @ ( Footage-of-the-sta Unidentified Woman 1 : Get that camera out of here ! Get out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's obvious in the confusing moments just after the raid that the ATF agents were disturbed by the presence of reporters . Unidentified Man 1 : I need help ! Unidentified Man 2 : Move ! Go ! @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) And just today , an agent who was wounded in the raid , John Risenhoover , on his own , filed a civil suit against the owners of the Waco Tribune Herald ... @(Footage-of-the-Wac) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) ... alleging the newspaper tipped Koresh off . @(Waco-Tribune-Heral) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) The newspaper denies the charge , and all Higgins would say is that the tip , whomever it came from , turned the tables on the ATF. @(Footage-from-the-s) @!Mr-HIGGINS : ( Voiceover ) But it depended on surprise and being done in a very quick period of time . We lost that element of surprise . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Instead , ATF agents were met by a hail of bullets as they attempted to storm the weapons room . The officers , seen here , were all part of a special response team @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ones in in most of these kind of raids ? @!Mr-HIGGINS : ( Voiceover ) These are the first ones in. qwq @ ( Footage-from-an-AT Unidentified Man 3 : Do it ! Do it ! @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) That 's their job . These are the same guys who put their lives on the line during a series of raids that 48 HOURS followed two and a half years ago . Back then , we had to conceal their identities . Unidentified Man 4 : Go ! Go ! @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) But now we can show you the faces of two of those agents ... @(Footage-of-Todd-Mc) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) ... 28-year-old Todd McKeehan and 30-year-old Conway LeBleu. @(Footage-of-the-sta) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Both were part of the assault team in Waco . With shots splintering through the wall , a fellow officer barely escaped with his life . Todd McKeehan and Conway LeBleu were not so lucky . They , along with fellow agents Steve Willis and Robert Williams , were all killed in the raid . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Was it realistic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : No , it was not . @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) Tony Cooper is a law enforcement consultant who teaches terrorism and conflict resolution at the University of Texas at Dallas . @!Mr-COOPER : It was the location where surprise simply could not work . This place stood out . @(Footage-of-the-Bra) @!Mr-COOPER : ( Voiceover ) It was in a relatively bare landscape . @(Footage-from-the-s) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) When you look back , did you depend too much on that element of surprise ? Did you count too much on the fact that Koresh would be surprised in this ? @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-HIGGINS : I -- you know , I 've looked at it and rethought it and I think everybody else has . I 've talked with the people who were part of that , those that were wounded , those that were team leaders . @(Footage-of-the-sta) @!Mr-HIGGINS : ( Voiceover ) We feel like there was no problem with the -- with the plan . They 're used to doing things that depend on surprise . Unidentified Man 5 : Move to the right ! @!Mr-COOPER : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-COOPER : The ATF is a civilian law enforcement agency . They underestimated the risks . They underestimated what they were facing . @(Footage-of-the-sta) @!MORIARTY : ( Voiceover ) What the ATF is facing now is growing criticism from those who question not only how the agents carried out the raid , but whether they should have been there at all . There would be some people who would say , ' Well , they were defending their home . ' @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Mr-HIGGINS : We did n't come in with guns smoking . We announced our presence and said we had a warrant . It happens all over this country night after night after night . If it 's justifiable to shoot a law enforcement officer because you 're somehow protecting your home against somebody who 's serving a lawful warrant , then God help us. qwq @ ( Footage-of-ATF-age @(Theme-music) 
##221457 48 HOURS STANDOFF AT WACO @!DAN-RATHER : Good evening and welcome to tonight 's special live edition of 48 HOURS . A Texas prairie 10 miles east of Waco is ground zero in a smouldering holy war , a test of will that has already claimed at least six lives . @(Live-footage-from-) @!RATHER : ( Voiceover ) Tonight the FBI says talks are closer to gaining the release of as many as 30 of the 105 members , perhaps even some of the 17 children , remaining inside this heavily armed compound of cult leader David Koresh . The tense standoff between the cult and federal agents is about to enter its 19th day . Tonight we peel back the layers of this chilling story , a story that reaches far beyond Waco . We 're about to visit a dark corner of American life -- the world of cults , where some members live not only with faith but also with fear . @!FAMILY-SECRET-# @(Footage-of-Robyn-B) @!Ms-ROBYN-BUNDS-@1U : Can you tell them their names ? What 's this ? @!SHAUN-BUNDS-@1Roby : A brontosaurus. @!RICHARD-SCHLESINGE : ( Voiceover ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a secret . @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Here 's a Tyrannosaurus rex . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Shaun looks like his father . Because he looks so much like his father , I ca n't hate his father . @(Footage-of-Shaun) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Robyn says Shaun 's father is David Koresh . Fearing for her life , she 's been hiding under police protection in a Los Angeles suburb . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : I told my mother that , you know , someday you might have to go kill Robyn and David , my brother . @!SCHLESINGER : Told your mother that she may have to kill her son and daughter ? @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Yeah , and that 's one of the reasons why she left . qwq @ ( Excerpt-from- " A-Cu @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Now , for the first time since the Waco siege , Robyn has agreed to talk openly about Koresh , who she knew by his given name , Vernon Howell . qwq @ ( Excerpt-from- " A-Cu @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : And I was one of his wives . I was just a single girl @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!Mr-DAVID-KORESH-@1 : ( from excerpt ) So how 's God going to talk to me in the latter days ? And who 's going to bring that book ? So there will be no excuses . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Six years ago , Robyn says Koresh picked her to be one of his many so-called wives . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Fourth wife . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) She was just 17. @!Ms-R-BUNDS : I was one of the first ones . I was one of the first ones that everybody knew about anyway . @(Footage-of-a-group) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Robyn was a child of the cult . Both parents were members . They lived with Koresh in Texas and California . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Robyn-a Unidentified Man 1 : ( from news program ) And Koresh will commit suicide . I think that he wants to maintain the image of being ... @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Robyn 's mother , Janine , also considered herself Koresh 's wife even though she was legally married to another cult member . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Mrs-JANINE-BUNDS-@ : Yeah , I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ daughter , and so was 15 other people in there . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!SCHLESINGER : When Robyn and Janine Bunds were still active in the cult , they lived in this house in nearby La Verne , California . Sometimes there were as many as 25 women who lived behind this white picket fence . @(Footage-of-the-hou) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) And Robyn and Janine say all of the women were available for whatever Koresh had in mind . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Vernon had his own room there at the end of the hall with his -- it was his harem house . Sometimes he 'd say , ' I want to talk to you later . ' That was his way of saying , you know , come up and see me , you know . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Mr-RICK-ROSS : All these cult leaders are just the same . They 're like spoiled children . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Rick Ross helps people break away from cults . @(Excerpt-from-a-pre) @!Mr-ROSS : All right . Unidentified Man 2 : Erin , now calm down ! @!Mr-ROSS : It 's just -- Erin @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Voiceover ) We first met him four years ago on 48 HOURS when a woman hired him to rescue her son . @!Mr-ROSS : I mean , are they about the Bible ? Or are they just a bunch of guys who want to control people ? @(End-of-excerpt) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Since then , he 's counseled the families of several members of Koresh 's cult . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Mr-ROSS : Well , he is a very charismatic individual . He 's a good speaker . He knows how to do a heck of a tap dance through the Bible . @(Footage-of-Koresh) @!Mr-KORESH : When Christ reveals himself , it 's going to be according to the Book ! @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Koresh is a 33-year-old Texan , a high school dropout with a knack for reciting Bible verses . He was never in trouble with the law until he took over the Branch Davidian sect in 1987 . That was after a bloody gun battle with another faction in Waco. @(Footage-from-a-cou) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) He was acquitted of all charges , and soon Koresh was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ son of God . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : He truly believes that he 's the son of God . I do n't ... @!SCHLESINGER : You be -- you believed that for a while , too , that he was . @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Probably for like a month . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!SCHLESINGER : Do you believe that he 's the messiah today ? @!Mrs-J-BUNDS : Sometimes . @!SCHLESINGER : Sorry ? @!Mrs-J-BUNDS : Sometimes . @!SCHLESINGER : Even now ? @!Mrs-J-BUNDS : Even now . Because of the way the events are turning out now . He had predicted all this to happen . He told us it would end up this way , that he would be a martyr . @!SCHLESINGER : Correct me , stop me if I 'm putting words in your mouth , but -- I mean , you still think he may be Jesus ? @!Mrs-J-BUNDS : Well , I think that and yet I push it out of my mind because if he is and I have left the group , then I 've lost . @!SCHLESINGER : You 've lost . @!Mrs-J-BUNDS : And I do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ waited patiently on the Lord . He inclined to me when he heard my cry . He brought me up out of a horrible pit . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) These people believe that God is Koresh , Koresh is God ? @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Mr-ROSS : Right , basically what Koresh has done is gone through a m -- more or less standard brainwashing techniques to control the minds of these followers . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!SCHLESINGER : What was his pitch when he hooked you ? @!Ms-R-BUNDS : He -- he did n't have a pitch . It was just scriptures , scripture after scripture after scripture , and the studies are so long and you 're -- food deprivation and you ca n't go to the bathroom during these studies and lack of sleep that , you know , you 're brainwashed . It 's -- it 's a brainwashing. @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Mr-ROSS : We do n't want to admit t . We want to say , ' Nah , that happens to some crazy person down the street -- their family . Could never happen to me . ' Well , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right set of circumstances ... @!SCHLESINGER : Can I tell you ... @!Mr-ROSS : ... and a leader . @!SCHLESINGER : I do n't -- with respect , I do n't believe you . I do n't believe it could happen to me . I mean , I -- I re -- if somebody comes up to me and tells me he 's Jesus ... @!Mr-ROSS : He 'd catch you when you were stressed out about something , when you were depressed , when you were -- you were out of sorts about something in your life . And then all of a sudden , these wonderful loving people would come to you , and they would say , ' You know , God loves you and we love you and we just want to just -- can we give you a hug ? ' @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Mrs-J-BUNDS : It 's just a gradual thing . It -- it 's not something that happened overnight , and he 's a very personable person . He 's a very lovable person . He 's kind . He loves children . And he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking about . @(Footage-of-Koresh) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) By all accounts , Koresh was a smooth talker when it came to dealing with adults , but Robyn says there was nothing smooth about his approach to children . @(Footage-of-Shaun) @!SHAUN : ( Voiceover ) I -- I -- I would -- I would make him go roar . @!Ms-R-BUNDS : ( Voiceover ) Shaun did n't like his father . By the time Shaun was , to Vernon , old enough to spank , which was nine months old , Shaun was scared of this person because he was a complete and total stranger . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : So Vernon decided the way to stop this was to spank him and ... @!SCHLESINGER : A nine-month-old ? @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Yeah . He would hit him with a paddle . He spanked him one time very hard and i -- his bottom bled . @!SCHLESINGER : He spanked him until his rear end bled when he was 10 months old ? How did you feel about that ? @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Out of everything that I ever did in that group , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of that I really , really , really despise , that I allowed to happen . @(Footage-of-Robyn-a) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : Can I have a kiss ? @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) In 1990 , life inside the cult became too controlled for Robyn , so she left . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!SCHLESINGER : Is he crazy ? @!Ms-R-BUNDS : He does n't seem crazy . @!SCHLESINGER : He does n't ? @!Ms-R-BUNDS : No. @!SCHLESINGER : Stockpiling guns and talking about Armageddon and saying ' I 'm Jesus ' ? @!Ms-R-BUNDS : He -- he seems very sa -- well , now he seems crazy because I 'm out here , and I 'm -- I 'm not there . @(Footage-of-Koresh) @!Ms-R-BUNDS : ( Voiceover ) And I look at him now , and I 'm -- look , God , he 's lost his mind , you know . He -- he really has . @(Theme-music) 
##221459 MILITARY SECRETS qwq @ ( Footage-of-a-darke Unidentified Sailor 1 : ( Voiceover ) There 's nothing I would like more than to be , you know , let up and tell you who I am and show you who I am , but I 'm not allowed to do that . @!RICHARD-SCHLESINGE : ( Voiceover ) A voice in the dark , a face we can not show you . qwq @ ( Footage-of-a-man-i Sailor 1 : It 's comfortable for me because I know I 'll be able to continue to serve my country , and that 's what I care about most . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) What we can tell you is that he 's an officer , a graduate of Annapolis ... @(Footage-of-sailors) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) ... and one of thousands of sailors who live and work in San Diego , one of the Navy 's largest ports and one of the places where the battle over keeping gays out of the military has moved front and center . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!SCHLESINGER : Most of the people you are about to meet @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ homosexual and they are in the Navy . To speak openly would almost certainly end their careers . So they will speak from the shadows . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Schlesi Sailor 1 : Before I came out and before I really knew who I was , before I became involved in the circle , the group of homosexuals in the military , I had no idea what the numbers were . A lot of times , I 'll catch myself going , ' I do n't believe it 's this big . ' @!SCHLESINGER : Are there other gay officers ? I mean , do you -- you laugh . Sailor 1 : Sure . @!SCHLESINGER : Maybe it sounds like a naive question , but is it that naive ? I mean , are there that many ? Sailor 1 : Yes , there are -- there are that many -- officers , yes . High-ranking officers , yes . Your top performers in the military are gay . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Fighting words . @(Footage-of-medals) Unidentified Sailor 2 : ( Voiceover ) This was given during Desert @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) But there are gay sailors with the medals to back them up . qwq @ ( Close-up-of-an-eva Sailor 2 : This is an evaluation , and as you can see , all my marks are 4.0 , which is the highest that you can get . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Top performers like these two sailors . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Schlesi This is a good record . You proud of this ? Sailor 2 : I 'm very proud of my record . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Both are enlisted men and both have served with distinction . Sailor 1 : When you 're closeted , you have to dedicate yourself to something , usually to keep your mind off of who you are . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Schlesi Sailor 2 : This is armed forces expeditionary . Sailor 1 : ( Voiceover ) So what you end up doing is dedicating yourself to the job . Sailor 2 : And this is humanitarian service . I was -- it 's for helping out -- I ca n't really say where it was because it would pin me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sailor 2 : But it 's for helping people when they 're in need at their hardest times . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) But while theirs is a secret life ... @(Footage-of-sailors) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) ... it 's also a secret shared . Sailor 2 : We got each other . I guess that 's the most important . Sailor 1 : It 's like any , quote-unquote , " regular " straight couple . We decided that we wanted a commitment , that -- you know , a monogomous relationship . @!SCHLESINGER : The difference is that with most people , their lifestyle ca n't get them fired . Sailor 1 : True . Sailor 2 : True . @!SCHLESINGER : With you guys , it can . So how do you -- how do you keep the two separate ? Sailor 1 : Learn to lie , and that 's a very tough thing to do . @!SCHLESINGER : You learn to lie . Sailor 2 : And you feel very guilty about it . Sailor 1 : I 've come out to so -- to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ such great friends that I thought it was important , but they know you as a person before they know you as a -- as a gay person . @!SCHLESINGER : And these are your shipmates . Sailor 1 : Shipmates . @!SCHLESINGER : Gays you sail with , guys you ... Sailor 1 : I 've been ... Sailor 2 : I 've done the same . Sailor 1 : ... employed with . @!SCHLESINGER : See , a lot of people would have a lot of trouble with that . Sailor 1 : I think straight men look at us as a threat , as thinking that we 're sex-oriented , you know . First of all , it 's just like a regular relationship . There has to be an attraction , and I 'm not attracted to straight men . We 're not just going to go up and grab their tail end or whatever . That 's -- that 's not going to happen . Sailor 2 : I do n't think that if the ban is lifted , you 're going to see sailors wearing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ military are closeted and will always be closeted , because , for myself , if I were to come out , I would be useless to the Navy because of the prejudices and ignorance that 's out there . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) With most homosexuals in the military unable to talk ... qwq @ ( Footage-of-Man-#-1 Unidentified Man 1 : I was in the Navy for 27 years as both an aviator and a physician . Unidentified Man 2 : I have 47 jumps with the 82nd Airborne . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) ... other gays and lesbians in San Diego , veterans and civilians ... qwq @ ( Footage-of-a-group Unidentified Woman 1 : I spent four years in the Navy in the mid- ' 70s . At the time , I thought I was heterosexual. @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) ... are speaking out for them . Woman 1 : If the ban stays and it 's OK to discriminate against us for that reason , what 's next ? Unidentified woman 2 : Where else in society can you be found guilty of a thought crime @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but just for being gay , you can be discharged . You can be out of a career , you can lose your friends , lose your rank . @(Footage-of-washroo) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) There are some who charge you can even lose your life . qwq @ ( Footage-from-churc Unidentified Woman 3 : I had two men knocking at my door , telling me that my son had been assaulted . @(Photo-of-Alan-Schi) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) San Diego-based sailor Alan Schindler was murdered in Japan last October . Woman 3 : His head was so caved in that his eyes was even with his ears . @(Photo-of-a-group-o) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) The alleged victim of gay bashing . Woman 3 : ( Voiceover ) A sailor that looked nothing like the boy who left my house two months before that . @(Footage-of-murder-) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) A 21-year-old shipmate is charged with the murder while the Pentagon faces charges that it has n't gone far enough by simply saying it does not condone Schindler 's death . @(Footage-of-Schlesi) @!Mr-JIM-WOODWARD-@1 : Nobody ever told him it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) Jim Woodward heads a San Diego gay veterans ' group . @!Mr-WOODWARD : If there was a black man who had been hung up on a burning cross and -- and hanged as Alan Schindler had been stomped to death , I know damn well that Colin Powell would have done more than not condone that . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Schlesi Sailor 2 : What I 've heard is very scary . What I 've heard is ignorance , genuine hatred towards homosexuals by some people . @!SCHLESINGER : Can you remember specific threats that you 've heard ? I mean , I 'm interested in how people put this . Sailor 2 : Basically they say if -- and I 'll be very frank , ' If they -- if any ( censored ) faggot looks at me , I 'll throw them overboard . ' qwq @ ( Footage-of-Sailor- Sailor 1 : There are comments made , you know . People just walk by and under their breath say ' fag ' or -- or something like that . You ca n't stop your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going . @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) But not without a fight . Sailor 1 : ( on telephone ) I need to get to you and get some more fliers . Sailor 2 : We have all these lists of how to reach your representatives : General Powell , the White House , Les Aspin . Sailor 1 : ( on telephone ) OK , thanks a lot . Sailor 2 : I 've called every single one and I 've got the -- the phone bill to prove it . @!SCHLESINGER : What kind of response did you get ? Sailor 2 : Senator Feinstein -- Dianne Feinstein has asked us if we would come to Washington and sit in front of a congressional board . @!SCHLESINGER : What do you say about that ? Sailor 2 : I 'd like to . In theory , it would be great . But it 's not a sure thing , and I 'm not willing right now to put my -- my career and possibly my life on the line . My parents are -- are scared enough just about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and they do n't want to see their son dead on the streets somewhere because he 's gay . @(Footage-of-sailors) @!SCHLESINGER : ( Voiceover ) So for now , they stay in the shadows . qwq @ ( Footage-of-Sailor- Sailor 1 : We 're going to be there . We always will . It 's just whether or not you 're going to continue to hunt us and force us to fear . 
##221461 FUGITIVES qwq @ ( Footage-of-members Unidentified Man 1 : ( On radio ) The lights are all on . The vehicles are stationary . Unidentified Man 2 : We got a caution , aggravated assault , so he does like to fight . @!Ms-CHARLOTTE-KELLY : Let 's do it . @!ERIN-MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) Every night , a special team in Houston , Texas , makes house calls . @(Footage-of-the-Zeb) @!Ms-KELLY : Ma'am , we 've got a felony warrant , and we 're just going to clear your house . Unidentified Man 3 : Sit down in that seat right there . @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) This is the Zebra Squad , a unit formed 18 months ago to do what no one else in Texas was doing then : tracking down parole violators. @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : There are parole officers that say Kenneth McDuff was a rare case . Does it happen ? @!Ms-KELLY : He 's not an individual that , quote , ' slipped through the cracks . ' He 's an individual who was paroled , like many others . He is not an exception @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @(Footage-of-a-meeti) @!Ms-KELLY : In the van , there will be Kelly , Garcia ... @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) They dress like police , act like police and are trained as police , with one major difference . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Is anyone in this room getting paid for what they 're doing tonight ? @!Ms-KELLY : No , ma'am . Unidentified Man 4 : Not monetarily. @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) These are all volunteers who work all day at other jobs , and then come in at night to suit up with the Zebras . What do you do ? Unidentified Man 5 : I work for the Houston Fire Department and also patrol here part-time . Unidentified Man 6 : Private investigative work for several law firms . Unidentified Man 7 : I 'm safety director for a trucking company . @!Ms-KELLY : I work for an international oil company . @!MORIARTY : Why are you willing to do this without any kind of pay ? Unidentified Man 8 : We 're doing it because we want to and because we 're dedicated and we -- we 're trying to make @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I mother , I grandmother . They 're all potential victims of this crime that 's going on . @(Footage-of-the-Zeb) @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) But is n't there something wrong with a system that people have to volunteer to do this ? @!Ms-KELLY : @(Voiceover) I think so . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!Ms-KELLY : You know , until we began this program , they knew that they were not being sought , and if they did n't get caught doing something else , that they were pretty well safe . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Who are you looking for tonight ? Man 8 : OK , this subject is Johnny Ray Lee . This subject right here received 45 years in Navarro County for five counts of aggravated sexual assault . Pedro Gonzalez : his fourth arrest is now pending , since we now have a warrant for his arrest on his parole violation . Rubin Pelatius : and this is the fourth time a warrant has been issued for this subject for being in violation of his parole . @!MORIARTY : Do you think this man is a dangerous man ? Man 8 : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ There are 6,000 of these fugitives -- or absconders , as they 're called -- hidden somewhere out there in the Houston area , 26,000 throughout the state of Texas . They are all felons , many of them dangerous felons , and they 're on the loose not because of some jail break . They simply walked away from their parole officers . @(Footage-of-Theresa) @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) Spend a day with a Texas parole officer , and it 's easy to see how that can happen . Unidentified Woman 1 : Hi . Come on in. @!Ms-THERESA-HACKNEY : Hi . How are you ? @(Voiceover) Usually she 's not home , you know , for her home visits . @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) Even though she knows you 're coming ? @!Ms-HACKNEY : @(Voiceover) Even though she knows I 'm coming , for the most part . @(Footage-of-Hackney) @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) Parole officer Theresa Hackney has more than 80 cases like this . @!Ms-HACKNEY : Well , when you came to the office , you did n't tell me that you had another residence . Unidentified Man 9 : When I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) Eighty parolees she 's supposed to see at least once every month -- that is , if they 're even home when she comes calling . @(Footage-of-Hackney) @!MORIARTY : He knows you 're coming ? @!Ms-HACKNEY : Yeah , I told him I was . @!MORIARTY : Is this pretty normal , though ? Does this happen a lot ? @!Ms-HACKNEY : Yeah , yeah , it does . That means I have to come back out again . @!MORIARTY : You do n't look very happy about that . @!Ms-HACKNEY : It 's a long ride . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Do you feel you adequately protect the public ? @!Ms-HACKNEY : Not adequately , no , because you never know what one will go out and do . @(Footage-from-a-mee) @!Mr-B.C-TARVIN-@1Su : We had an officer who was slammed against the wall of a house the other day . So whenever you 're out there , remember who you 're dealing with and where you 're at . @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) B.C. Tarvin is a parole officer supervisor . Let 's be honest . There are some people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ There are some people you do n't know where they are . @!Mr-TARVIN : Of course . There 's probably -- there 's probably 25 people on everybody 's caseload who are absconders . That 's a -- and they still have 80 cases to supervise . @!MORIARTY : And how do you know those people are n't committing crimes right now ? @!Mr-TARVIN : Well , we really don't. qwq @ ( Footage-of-the-Zeb Unidentified Man 10 : Let me see your hands , man . Let me see your hands . Open the door . @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) With any luck , the volunteer Zebras will pick them up first . Man 8 : Where 's your ID ? Unidentified Man 11 : I do n't have any . Man 8 : You do n't have any ? @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) On this evening , the squad found a missing parolee , the convicted rapist Rubin Pelatius , just sitting in a car in front of his mother 's house . @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : If you had n't come tonight , would there have been anyone else out looking for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Footage-of-Moriart) @!MORIARTY : Why is n't there anyone out looking for him ? The only group out looking for him was a volunteer squad . Governor ANN RICHARDS ( Texas ) : I think it 's money . @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) Texas Governor Ann Richards : @!Gov-RICHARDS : At a time when the populace says ' Do n't raise my taxes , ' they also said ' Be sure that there are plenty of people doing the jobs . ' And , of course , people and money are the same thing . @!MORIARTY : @(Voiceover) Just last month , to try to avoid another McDuff case , Governor Richards formed her own fugitive squad . But because of prison overcrowding , the state is still forced to release 70 parolees every day . You 're confident that every one of those 70 people who are being let out every single day are ready for parole ? @!Gov-RICHARDS : We are as confident as we can be when you are dealing with a criminal population . @!MORIARTY : So how do you protect society when you ca n't pull these people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ society in the same way you protect your own families . You do everything that you can do for them , and you pray to God that it works . @(Theme-music) @!RATHER : Many in Texas agree that outrage over the McDuff case has shed light on serious problems in the parole system and could help bring about change . It could n't happen a moment too soon . In addition to McDuff , 67 death row inmates in Texas were freed on parole . Two of them are still missing tonight . 